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Discussion in 'More Naval AI Modmod' started by lfgr, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    In my opinion I do think the best change for the clans would be to remove both the jungle bias start and the combat bonuses they get in jungle. Design wise it make no sense to have a faction spawn in jungle that has pretty much has no gameplay mechanics centered around the concept. It's like elves having a bias for desert. Now the augment can be made that jungle does provide a lot of luxuries, but if they can't utilize those luxuries until later it's still terrible. But all in all if you want to keep them in the jungle I think it much better to let them chop it earlier. It give no hammer when you chop jungle, so I can't see the balance being bad.
     
  2. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    Also are you working on the more naval AI mod or is it someone else? I'm running a few games with the AI controlling my faction...I got some feedback. lol
     
  3. lfgr

    lfgr Emperor

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    I'm developing this updated version of MNAI. Feel free to report feedback in that thread (but please make sure to mention which version you are playing).
     
  4. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    Also is it possible to make it so when you summon the infernal that they can not take a city using their ability on the person that summoned them? It's beyond frustrating that you summon them and they snipe one of your most important cities.
     
  5. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    Me and my friend are getting OOS every single turn for about 6 turns straight. What do I need to send for you to look into this? Also could it be because we enabled revolutions?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
  6. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    It's pretty much the same as summoning Basium, only in that case, you get to choose which city Basium takes over. But it would have to be a well-developed city to produce enough hammers to make the Gate wonder anyway, so it's going to hurt. So summoning the Infernals probably usually hurts less, to be honest.
    But in either case, there's just not much benefit to summoning either of them unless you want to become them. I mean, that's not the only reason, I myself have other reasons to summon the Infernals in most games, but the benefit to the civilization that summons them is dubious.
     
  7. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Warlord

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    Well Basium is useful as a military ally, although that usefulness is tempered by the fact that his AI is a lemming. I have literally seen him move his entire starting stack out of his capital, leaving it to be captured by an errant horse archer
     
  8. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    With the Mercurians though you can pick where they are summoned and yeah it's a investment, but you can plan on where you are going to put and you also have the option to use a great engineer to got a lot of it done. And my point though is that I don't want the infernal to take a city that is in the middle of my empire. It looks horrible and just encourages players to declare war and take the city back, which is 100% counter productive. Like design wise the Mercurian and the Infernals have some questionable mechanics and ideas, but the basic idea for them both is to have that final showdown of good vs evil end game.
     
  9. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    I wouldn't actually agree that that IS the basic idea. Erebus/FfH is dark fantasy. I think it's more the point that both those factions are dangerous, and unless you want to play the fanatical civilizations (including the Sheaim on the one hand and the Bannor on the other), you have to stop the destruction caused by BOTH of them.
     
  10. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Yea, I mean look at who they actually are.

    The Infernals are literally hell demons of evil, torment and hopelessness. Their leader is the former archangel of the god of hope who now runs on despair instead thanks to falling into evil. His one and only goal is to turn everything into a despair driven hell. And mortals are just tools to be used in that process. These aren't nice people.

    The only reason why you would ever ally with him is because you want to destroy the world (genuinely the canonical motivation for Os Gabriela ) or are stupid enough to think that when the world becomes hell you'll have a seat slightly higher up the pecking order if you get on board early. Either way he does not give a dam about you or your hope as he is no longer into that. So him screwing you over as the first thing he does as he enters this world is completely on point. To paraphrase a great movie he has altered the pack now pray that he does not alter it further.

    Really the canonical ending for winning via siding with him should basically be you standing on top of a burning world thinking to your self "Gosh darn it. Maybe I shouldn't have done that." just before you your self are ruined along with the rest.


    The Mercurians meanwhile are absolutely no better. These aren't your wishi washi saturday morning cartoon angels that help kittens off trees and teach children not to do drugs. No, they are the biblical kind of angel. The kind that's made out of fire, anger and a single minded purpose before which all must bow or burn.

    Basium is a fanatic of the kind that would make 40K space marines look positively reasonable by comparison. He is a veteran of the war of the gods that came before the current age and was so bad that the world was nearly destroyed. And he refuses to ever let it go even when all others have. He quite literally hates the Infernals so much that he refused to obey the contract his god made with other gods in order to save the world from destruction and just wants to keep going on fighting them no matter what.

    Every bit of lore we have on him and his warband is that in no uncertain terms they are absolutely no less viscous and ruthless than their Infernal counterparts. They will just as happily do any atrocity they deem necessary or even just beneficial to their cause. And they are absolutely willing to go to any length and any extreme in their single minded quest to defeat their counterparts even if it means burning down the whole world in the process until it's only the two of them standing atop an omnicidal pyre grappling with each other forever.

    You don't summon these guys because you want reinforcements or "good guys" to help you. You don't do it because the Lanun are raiding your ports again or the dam elves are bothering your lumberjacks with unreasonable quotas or that crazy clown you have for a neighbor is acting up again.

    No, the reason you summon them is because HELL is here on earth RIGHT NOW and you need to fight like the third monkey climbing up the ramp to Noas Arc because the rain has started. And even than you only do it as the absolute last resort when literally every single reasonable option has failed and it's either that or submitting to hell. And you do it with the hope that by the time the two are done fighting who ever wins is going to be weakened enough for you to take them out before they ruin the world.


    Put simply, the two are like atomic weapons. Once either one of the two is on the field the other won't be far behind. And there won't be a happy ending.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2022
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  11. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    It still does not really justify the act of taking a city that is miles away from them from any gameplay perceptive. To boot is does not even have any units defending it, so you can simply just take it back. It simply is not a good mechanic when the AI does that. Also you can make a choose to summon the Mercurians, but your force to summon the infernal unless you don't want StW, the wonder, etc. Lore or not, it's simply not a fun mechanic.
     
  12. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Warlord

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    There's a number of ways to reinforce a high population faraway city including slavery and conscription and the Infernals are very good at quickly replenishing the population lost to those two. The one game I played where the infernals really snowballed (until I gibbon goetia-ed them) they took a powerful city from the strongest AI in the world on a completely different continent on the other side of the world and managed to use that city very well as a forward base to eventually take over that whole continent.
     
  13. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Don't they spawn with like the giant demon hero and an army of demons?
     
  14. lfgr

    lfgr Emperor

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    There is already some logic in place that disfavors cities in the hand of evil and Ashen Veil players, and also distant cities. It's not really possible to get a reasonable choice 100% of the time, unfortunately.
    I agree with the others that evil players should not be immune to repercussions from summoning Hyborem. This is already a theme in the mod with hell terrain.

    Pleas first check if your BUG options differ, in particular "Avoid angry citizens in new cities" and "Avoid unhealthy citizens in new cities" in the FfH tab, and the four options in the Scoreboard tab related to Dynamic civ names. These can cause an OOS (will be fixed in the next version). If you still get an OOS, please post a savegame that (ideally) reliably triggers an OOS when all players end the turn.

    That's a sort of thing where a savegame from the turn before is very useful to me. Of course I do understand if people don't always want to go to the trouble of finding and posting savegames while playing. :)

    I think David is talking about the newly acquired city.
     
  15. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I thought that they spawned, took over a city and instantly got an army in it like the mercurians do.
     
  16. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    No there first city spawn in a random spot on the map which other then orbis, is usually a spot without a city.
     
  17. David12596

    David12596 Warlord

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    I see you updated more naval AI recently, any change Extramodmod will get this new update? I don't have time atm to test cause some many new stuff out, but me and my friend would love to test it in the future in EMM. If civ 4 goes on sale I want to get a few more people to try this mod. lol
     
  18. lfgr

    lfgr Emperor

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    Yes, I will merge the new version of MNAI-U into Extramodmod, but I don't have an ETA.
     
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  19. lfgr

    lfgr Emperor

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    For those interested, I just posted a thread on my plans for the revolution component, as announced a while ago. Feel free to discuss there.
     
  20. False Dead

    False Dead Chieftain

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    So something I noticed while tinkering about, if you use the "end of winter" option in custom games gunpowder resources do not spawn on the map at game start. Haven't played any game long enough to see if this self corrects as the climate raises but thought I might mention it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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