Fabula Terra Development Thread

[johny smith]

This is really early I know, but we are planning a mod for Civ5 already.

The title is Fabula Terra.
The forum is here.

The two starting ideas are culture evolution and a more advanced resource system.

Culture evolution being your civilization changes through time. We want to create a minigame for each civilization. Basically this a hope to make something similar to UHV's in "Rhye's and Fall of Civilization". Except the difference is when you do well you are rewarded with bonuses that apply to the next stage of your civilization. Now like RFC people are not going to be excited to play the very first Europeans in say 4000BC. We planning to allow skipping to the appropriate time to play the civilization of your liking. This presents a huge list of possible civilizations, but at least some more organized rules to place a civilization in a better context of history. So if you play Rome well you could continue as if Rome never fell.

More advanced resource system is everything will have a quantity. Plus every resource has a value to help provide maintenance cost. We are planning to make new categories of resources that can meet the needs for a given maintenance cost. Finite resources will be added to give a value of what you can use versus non-finite resources that really never run dry. It is also planned to form a simple global market where values of resources are really priced. Anyway there is large list of what is planned to be done. For example horses are not a finite resource. The world will not run out of horses(unless a great cataclysm happens), but oil is finite.

We are going to redo the technology tree completely, and add unique technologies for each civilization. This combined with unique resources will give many options to show the story from the viewpoint of a civilization in time. The Chinese invented gunpowder earlier. What if the Chinese had applied this faster to weapon technology versus lagging behind European gun technology?

We also plan to map water as finite value in the game to return some mechanism of limiting population. A simple climate change model is in the works as well to show some effects of climate changing output of food over a large scale of history. For example what were the right conditions in the Middle East to produce the crop yields required to feed the population. How did that change through time?

Well there is a lot plans at this point. We have not seen the game yet, but we know some information so far. We are aiming to try to add a little more realism to game without micromanagement. We are in the beginning stages of setting up the tools to make the idea and thinking on plans for the future. This is not meant to argue about the game nor to argue about trying to have more realism being a bad idea. If anyone is interested the Fabula Terra forums have just began to be used as space to discuss or this thread. I hope to hear some positive replies. Thank you.

 

[johny smith]

Tentative Technological Eras planned at this point with approximate times in game.

7500 BC Neolithic
4300 BC Copper
2700 BC Bronze
1100 BC Iron
300 BC Antiquity
500 AD Dark
900 AD Middle
1300 AD Renaissance
1500 AD Discovery
1700 AD Enlightenment
1800 AD Industrial
1900 AD Machine
1950 AD Atomic
2000 AD Information
2025 AD Genetic
2050 AD Future

 

[johny smith]

Tentative Regions so far

 

[johny smith]

reserved2

 

[Drake L. Dragon]

I am absolutely willing to participate in this project, if you will ever desire my opinion on a question. I believe that Rhye's and Fall of Mankind had a revolutionary idea for the Civilization games, but it was not applied well, from what I remember. The idea of the Civilization games is to play this empire from 4000 B.C. to the future era, but Rhye's and Fall of Mankind was exactly the opposite of that concept. Rhye's and Fall of Mankind enforced that the player should not play as an empire but should play as a multitude of empires throughout history. There are many positives to such a system, of course. Realism would be much more concentrated, and therefore the historical fanatics will be much happier, but the player would not be able to feel any attachment to any civilization. In that manner, what draws people into the concept of Rhye's and Fall of Mankind is the fact that the enjoyment is not playing successfully through one civilization but the overall experience of playing through multiple civilizations and seeing the evolution of human civilization over time, but, though the latter concept is much harder to implement, it certainly seems to be the optimal application of the fundamental concept of a game about human civilization and the most rewarding, and Fabula Terra for Civilization V should totally be pursued.

One of the things that I remember about Rhye's and Fall of Mankind is that the timescale of the game was set to around normal. The gamespeed of games such as Fabula Terra should be set to epic or slower, because the player must be able to immerse himself or herself into the temporary civilization and the time period he or she is. At the beginning, cities shouldn't even be possible to build, if the game begins in the Neolithic Era, because, at that time, humans were hunter-gatherers, neither city nor country dwellers. The Age of Discovery should also be set back to around 1450 A.D., because that was when Portugal began traveling out into Western Africa and the East. Then, in 1500 A.D., the Age of Conquer (As in Conquistadors) should begin, because, realistically, Spain conquered South America during such time. Hernan Cortes, after all, conquered the Aztecs at the beginning of the 1520s, and Francisco Pizzaro conquered the Incans of Peru in 1532. 1600 A.D. should then be the Age of Colonization, because that was when the English began sending guys like Sir Walter Raleigh and that John Smith character in Pocahontas. The reason I concentrate so much on, generally, the Age of First Imperialism is exactly because of its historical importance. There would be no United States, after all, without colonization.

The important thing, right now, is concisely to mark out a plan as to how Fabula Terra will implement the concepts of the time scales and of the player playing civilizations through time in a clear and concise enumeration. These are the concepts I propose.

(1) The player plays one civilization per era.
(2) The player can choose to keep playing that civilization after an era.
(3) A system of revolutions should be entered into the game. If a player does keep playing as a civilization, the likelihood of a revolution occurring in a civilization (With cities) exponentially increases, and, if in the earlier portions of the game, barbarian raids are more likely. (Such as in the late Roman Empire, because of barbarians being fed up with such civilization.)
(4) The concept of the preset civilizations, such as England, America, etc. should be thrown out. for an entirely new system. Such a small amount of civilizations wouldn't be able to capture the extreme amount of civilizations involved per era in history -- especially if Fabula Terra will make civilizations become diminished from the game as new civilizations arise. There would also be no way to create new civilizations as much anymore because of the graphical complexities of the leaderheads now. To replace, there should be no actual civilizations from history in the game but rather civilizations and leaders should have randomized names, and the diplomacy screen should be such as those with City-States, which have no leaderheads. In this manner, a system for titles for the leaders of each civilization could be implemented, such as, "President," "King," "Emperor," etc. depending on the civics and category chosen in the civics tree and the size and locations of the empire. The leader names could also be randomized after awhile, as the leaders would realistically die or lose office. The years for a leader to live could also be influenced by factors such as the era and the life span of the people at the time.
(5) In order to contain issues such as RAM, the map size and map should constantly be changing for the necessity of each era. For example, at the beginning, assuming that the game begins in Eurasia, the Americas should not be necessary, because it's obvious that the player will have nothing substantial with that part of the map until the Age of Discovery.
(6) Maybe the future era could also be abolished, so that the game could transition into the phase, much like the Final Frontier in Beyond the Sword. There could be an Age of World Order, Age of Separation, Age of Mars Colonization, etc., but, of course, such should not be applied until maybe the second build of the mod, so that the core mod mechanics can be concentrated firstly.

 

[johny smith]

I am absolutely willing to participate in this project, if you will ever desire my opinion on a question. I believe that Rhye's and Fall of Mankind had a revolutionary idea for the Civilization games, but it was not applied well, from what I remember. The idea of the Civilization games is to play this empire from 4000 B.C. to the future era, but Rhye's and Fall of Mankind was exactly the opposite of that concept. Rhye's and Fall of Mankind enforced that the player should not play as an empire but should play as a multitude of empires throughout history. There are many positives to such a system, of course. Realism would be much more concentrated, and therefore the historical fanatics will be much happier, but the player would not be able to feel any attachment to any civilization. In that manner, what draws people into the concept of Rhye's and Fall of Mankind is the fact that the enjoyment is not playing successfully through one civilization but the overall experience of playing through multiple civilizations and seeing the evolution of human civilization over time, but, though the latter concept is much harder to implement, it certainly seems to be the optimal application of the fundamental concept of a game about human civilization and the most rewarding, and Fabula Terra for Civilization V should totally be pursued.

One of the things that I remember about Rhye's and Fall of Mankind is that the timescale of the game was set to around normal. The gamespeed of games such as Fabula Terra should be set to epic or slower, because the player must be able to immerse himself or herself into the temporary civilization and the time period he or she is. At the beginning, cities shouldn't even be possible to build, if the game begins in the Neolithic Era, because, at that time, humans were hunter-gatherers, neither city nor country dwellers. The Age of Discovery should also be set back to around 1450 A.D., because that was when Portugal began traveling out into Western Africa and the East. Then, in 1500 A.D., the Age of Conquer (As in Conquistadors) should begin, because, realistically, Spain conquered South America during such time. Hernan Cortes, after all, conquered the Aztecs at the beginning of the 1520s, and Francisco Pizzaro conquered the Incans of Peru in 1532. 1600 A.D. should then be the Age of Colonization, because that was when the English began sending guys like Sir Walter Raleigh and that John Smith character in Pocahontas. The reason I concentrate so much on, generally, the Age of First Imperialism is exactly because of its historical importance. There would be no United States, after all, without colonization.

The important thing, right now, is concisely to mark out a plan as to how Fabula Terra will implement the concepts of the time scales and of the player playing civilizations through time in a clear and concise enumeration. These are the concepts I propose.

(1) The player plays one civilization per era.
(2) The player can choose to keep playing that civilization after an era.
(3) A system of revolutions should be entered into the game. If a player does keep playing as a civilization, the likelihood of a revolution occurring in a civilization (With cities) exponentially increases, and, if in the earlier portions of the game, barbarian raids are more likely. (Such as in the late Roman Empire, because of barbarians being fed up with such civilization.)
(4) The concept of the preset civilizations, such as England, America, etc. should be thrown out. for an entirely new system. Such a small amount of civilizations wouldn't be able to capture the extreme amount of civilizations involved per era in history -- especially if Fabula Terra will make civilizations become diminished from the game as new civilizations arise. There would also be no way to create new civilizations as much anymore because of the graphical complexities of the leaderheads now. To replace, there should be no actual civilizations from history in the game but rather civilizations and leaders should have randomized names, and the diplomacy screen should be such as those with City-States, which have no leaderheads. In this manner, a system for titles for the leaders of each civilization could be implemented, such as, "President," "King," "Emperor," etc. depending on the civics and category chosen in the civics tree and the size and locations of the empire. The leader names could also be randomized after awhile, as the leaders would realistically die or lose office. The years for a leader to live could also be influenced by factors such as the era and the life span of the people at the time.
(5) In order to contain issues such as RAM, the map size and map should constantly be changing for the necessity of each era. For example, at the beginning, assuming that the game begins in Eurasia, the Americas should not be necessary, because it's obvious that the player will have nothing substantial with that part of the map until the Age of Discovery.
(6) Maybe the future era could also be abolished, so that the game could transition into the phase, much like the Final Frontier in Beyond the Sword. There could be an Age of World Order, Age of Separation, Age of Mars Colonization, etc., but, of course, such should not be applied until maybe the second build of the mod, so that the core mod mechanics can be concentrated firstly.

Wow. That is a lot of information. I agree with you completely on the overall design.

The map issue though we do not know how it will be possible. We are also though looking at the context of what other civilizations are doing on the other end of the world at the corresponding time. We are thinking a very large map and epic game times, but of course you play your part and have victory for being successful on accomplishing your goals without playing for days. As for RAM conservation the possible civilizations in play is what is the first idea to limit RAM usage.

We can not display ever possibility at once. There will have to be some things played out by the AI before you begin. So for example I am thinking you might select England in 1500 but you might be battling a very powerful Holy Roman Empire for colonies versus France. This would be because HRE was successful and continued into the following eras.

Now saying that. This does not mean we could not have scenarios(to be played as set world) within the mod. Where you have an enlarged map focusing on a particular area. If we get the basic setup behind us we can make multiple scenarios that are not so randomized on what has taken place. So yes we could apply the system to multiple possible worlds even.

Everything else you stated would be exactly what we hope to achieve. The technological eras I presented was a simple model that I first came up with to have a even rate of increasing speed to time. I am open to any detail suggestions of what to do that is seen as better. And I am thankful that someone else shares our ideas. Please feel free to make any suggestions as you see fit.

 

[johny smith]

Here is a question I would like to know the answer to.

How many people would rather play an alternative history for the Americas versus a historical game.

For example for AH I am thinking the Aztecs are around at the same time of the Romans.

Tehuacan--------------------------Neolithic Central America
----San Lorenzo(Olmec)----------------Copper Mesoamerica
--------Tres Zapotes(Olmec)---------------Bronze Mesoamerica
------------Tula(Toltec)-----------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Tzintzuntzan(Tarascans)-----------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Tenochtitlan(Aztec)----------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
------------Teotihuacan-----------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------El Tajin(Totonac)------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Cholua----------------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
--------Kaminaljuyu(Maya)-----------------Bronze Mesoamerica
------------San Jose Mogote(Zapotec)---------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Tilantongo(Mixtec)-----------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Monte Alban(Zapotec)--------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
------------Tikal(Maya)------------------------Iron Mesoamerica
----------------Mayapan(Maya)--------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica
----------------Tayasal(Maya)---------------------Antiquity Mesoamerica

Why I am thinking alternate history is for balance as well. Stone Age civilizations would not be progress as far on techs. If more people prefer to have the Aztecs appear in 14th century right before European exploration I need to know. Well please let me know and if anyone has any better suggestions on the civilizations I would be happy to change them.

P.S. I plan to change the era names in the future, but the real era value in the game would correspond to the names I have here. I mean based on the current proposed eras anyway.

 

[imperiex1]

I am participating in FT already.

One of my ideas is:

Choose an era. You will then get a list of civs for that era. However, you(and AI's) can continue as if the civilizations never merged/split in the later eras. Like the analogy about starting as Rome and playing as if it never fell throughout history.

 

[johny smith]

I am participating in FT already.

One of my ideas is:

Choose an era. You will then get a list of civs for that era. However, you(and AI's) can continue as if the civilizations never merged/split in the later eras. Like the analogy about starting as Rome and playing as if it never fell throughout history.

I want to do that, and thank you for the help.

But here is the question though. When does a civ began? For example where do the Aztecs begin. All of the civs I have listed above I would like to give options to continue. The problem will be how many we could complete for alternate history so we would have to prioritize some over civs to begin with. I mean I could see more people are familiar with the Maya and the Aztecs so those would come first from the list of civs in Mesoamerica to have alternate histories. But where should the Aztecs begin? Should they begin in the Antiquity based on technology or should they begin in the Renaissance based on time?

I would rather do it based on technology so we do not have a lot of unknowns before that. I mean if we go on time the idea of starting civs would have a lot of missing links till getting the correct time. For example the Olmec are really the first Mesoamerican civilization as in cities, but they would not begin until 1500 BC. That would be a big empty space at the beginning if we go by time.

And of course if we have Aztecs spears versus Spanish guns in Civ5(I know reality the spears were still effective in many cases but this is Civ5 not the real world we can not have every detail)we will just have the Mesoamericans beaten over and over again. It would not be very balanced I mean. I do not want to give the Mesoamericans to big of advantage but I do not want them to be destroyed every game.

 

[Drake L. Dragon]

I am participating in FT already.

One of my ideas is:

Choose an era. You will then get a list of civs for that era. However, you(and AI's) can continue as if the civilizations never merged/split in the later eras. Like the analogy about starting as Rome and playing as if it never fell throughout history.

Now, I notice three trends, and it is necessary to decide which of these trends to follow in order to move forward. The people want a realistic game, an unrealistic game, or an alternative history game. If Fabula Terra is to become a realistic game, the game would have to simulate events throughout history accurately and religiously. If it is to be an unrealistic game, it would be much like Fall from Heaven or anything else fantasy inspired. However, the choice that seems to have the most support seems to be the choice of an alternative history game. Such a game would have more freedom than a realistic game -- so that the potential is not chained down by actual historical events -- but it would nevertheless follow historical trends over time.

In that way, the Age of Discovery doesn't have to be in the 1400s. It could start anytime after a civilization founds the usage of the galley. If the develops of Fabula Terra have decided to take my suggestion not to use actual leaderheads with all the advanced graphics but rather something similar to the City-State diplomacy screen, then civilizations don't necessarily have to be chained down by the eras in which those civilizations have historically appeared. What an alternative history game has to do, however, is to simulate the processes of history -- but not necessarily replicate the events of history. For example, an alternative history game must apply a system for revolutions in the game, because revolutions were truthfully just as historically important as wars with other nations. A system for two civilizations to merge or consentually divide is also very important as well.

However, if one civilization is called Castille and another Aragon, there is no necessity for an alternative history game to have the two civilizations, in merging, form Spain. It's more about applying the mechanics of historical change, once more, than applying historical events. Therefore, in reply to the quotation, it should be fine for the player actually to play as one civilization, because, historically, one civilization China was in reality able to survive throughout its 4000 or so years of history. However, Fabula Terra shouldn't have more than two long-lasting civilizations in the game at a time, and maintenance of a civilization that a player chooses over multiple eras should constantly become harder and harder to manage, as with revolutions, more barbarian attacks in eras of antiquity, more hatred from civilizations of proximity, etc., because civilizations that last a long time do naturally become harder and harder to manage.

As for choosing for an era, however, I think it should be possible, but maybe there should be a limit from choosing an era after maybe the Age of Iron. Fabula Terra has, after all, to be entertaining to the player, in theory, through the journey of humanity, with multiple civilizations, through time, rather than a single civilization, if we want to keep with the initial blueprint.

 

[johny smith]

We are not looking for the nice leaderheads. If way in the future we have a very organized mod we might replace some 2d symbols with 3d leaders.

We are planning unique tech trees for each civilization. So the problem is a civilization has to start from the end of a previous civilization in most cases. For example the Aztecs developed from many previous civilizations. The Aztecs need to start after the Olmecs, Mayans, and etc.

This is planned to have a technological tree to applies to the group. Some civs would be in different worlds in game from their perspectives. Splitting and merging is planned to not matter so much because the next era you will most likely choose the one civ of area. Saying that the first plan is to make a simple system of swapping a civ per era. After this we could add in revolts. We just need to start somewhere.

So I am saying I am stuck on the possible beginning times of civilizations now until I get feedback on the Americas. Should the Aztec tech era be the 5 era the same as the beginning Roman era? Please tell me what technological era the Aztecs should begin. I am working on the civilization tree now to implement once we receive the game.

 

[johny smith]

Ok after talking with someone who is working on the mod idea I have come up with this suggestion....

How about we have begin times for civ like the Americas be scalable by the player.

For example you can choose the starting time for regions like Mesoamerica.

1. You select you civs start time and therefore starting the regions time of your civilization.
2. You can select the times that a base civ begins for a region like the Olmecs.

So if you play Rome you can select start as Rome and begin in 300 BC or so.
Then you can have a scale to being the Olmecs somewhere between 4300 BC or 300 BC. Whatever is better to your liking. That way we could have the option of historical or alternate histories for regions to be available.

Basically a bar to weigh the time periods to make them match.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_archaeological_periods

So you could decide when the Mesoamerica Formative period begins in relation to the Middle East model. That means placing the the Formative period equal in the Copper Age till Antiquity on the eras I have above.

I want to just first lay out some base civs then the community will have to help on customizing them more. We will need a world atlas online and laid out branches for civs. The time eras will match the regions(meaning Olmecs are in the Formative Era) and we would have different years based on the regional view of time(Olmec or Mayan calendar for Mesoamerica).

 

[Caeserportugal]

That sounds like a good ideia johny

 

[imperiex1]

Another Idea:

The maps should be HUGE, maybe something like 2400 by 2400, and they should also be spherical if that is possible. Also the progression of the game should be 1 year/turn, constant. I personally am a fan of slow games and would like to see this. For those who are in the fast lane, maybe the above ideas should be only options that you can set and not settings that you are stuck with.

I have heard that there is going to be a completely reworked tech tree. However, I disagree very slightly with the fact that each group has their own tech tree. Rather, there should be a (mostly) generic tech tree, but each civilization will have its own collection of maybe 10 or so unique techs, in a special segment of the tech tree.

 

[Emperor Bosco I]

I second everything imperiex1 said.

Additionally, I have an age timeline already that I created for a different game that might be worth considering:

Stone: 10000-7500
Tool: 7500-4000
Bronze: 4000-1000
Iron: 1000-750
Classical: 750-375
Golden: 375-1 (This & Classical are Greek-specifically named)
Dominion: 1-450 (So called since Europe is under the dominion of Rome)
Dark: 450-600
Feudal: 600-1100
Holy: 1100-1300 (Years of the Crusades)
Renaissance: 1300-1450
Discovery: 1450-1550
Colonial: 1550-1700
Enlightenment: 1700-1850
Industrial: 1850-1950
Atomic: 1950-2000
Information: 2000-2050
Future:>2050

But maybe we don't want to program all these...

 

[Emperor Bosco I]

So about how many civs are we thinking in a region (Mesoamerica, Europe, etc.)?

 

[johny smith]

Well we are thinking to first lay out the regions. I am thinking 16 regions, and then we make 1 civ for each region(just for the beginning stages to serve as a base). The civ needs to be a very important civ for the region so we can make a regional tech tree. For example Mesoamerica never had the wheel really, and did not go very far in any form metallurgy. So for Mesoamerica I would think the Olmecs or the Mayans so we can get a good tech tree. The Aztecs were late to the game. So unique techs based off a regional tree at least.

You can not trade techs in Civ5 so I feel this makes more sense. You will have city-states in each area as well. And you will be able to research along with them. For example the Aztecs research along side some Toltec city state.

So regions are not set but this is what I am proposing.

1. West North America
2. East North America
3. Mesoamerica/Carribbean
4. South America
5. West Europe
6. Central Europe
7. East Europe
8. North Africa
9. West Africa
10. East Africa
11. Middle East
12. Central Asia
13. South Asia
14. East Asia
15. North Asia
16. Oceania

Your tech tree could apply to a scenario, but I am looking for one with equal time that spreads time evenly. The names for the eras would be different in each region. So for example if you had a crusade era in west Europe...it would not be a crusade ear in China.

Oh yes the map will be as big as possible. But game times we need to stagger still with a tech rate really. It will be long enough trust me.

 

[imperiex1]

To state one of my earlier ideas more clearly(and with a few edits):

I think that there should be a rather narrow generic tech tree, but one which widens as time goes on. After researching a specified prerequisite generic tech there will be a region-specific tech tree. There should be multiple region-specific tech trees for some civs, in different eras, if that is possible.

I agree totally to the above poster regarding eras. And also to johnny smith. Head over to the Fabula Terra forum by clicking on this link.

 

[johny smith]

As for the tech tree I am thinking the other way really. The techs begin wider apart and narrow more in the later game. What would I put in the Americas for example? They have no wheel technology. I am going to go into more detail with the Europeans and Middle East as well. For example I would have a Potter's Wheel tech before the wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter's_wheel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel#History

There is something stated in the wiki that the Olmecs may of made some toys with a wheel, but regardless the civ tech tree does not even begin to show techs in the Americas. So I do not see a possible generic tech tree in the beginning to be possible. What techs could be in the Americas from the tech tree for a historical basis?

 

[JtW]

Hi Johny.

This is one of the greatest ideas for a mod I have ever seen. I hope you manage to implement it well!

The biggest problem I see is performance. If you create a huge giant map with tons of civs in it, it is going to choke most systems. I am thinking Rise of Mankind and its performance issues (e.g., on my old machine, the game would hang somewhere around 1AD on large maps because of stack overflow or whatever.)

I think that Drake's idea to create more detailed regional maps for earlier eras and scale up as you progress through history would be a lot better performance-wise. (It was also the first thing that popped to my mind when I've read about Fabula Terra.) Unless you have a really good idea how to make your mod really efficient... It is no fun really to wait 15 minutes (or hours) between turns - and I can definitely see that coming with this mod. How do you want to deal with this?