Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Vehem]

Animals can gain 9 total strength over the course of the game, the speed at which they gain it is based on your gamespeed and handicap settings.

Didn't we reduce that to 5 or 6 in the end? Thought that was the plan at least...

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In anycase, the theory behind it is similar to the one that caused the "bear-hordes" in early versions of Shadow. An area untouched by civilization will become increasingly wild and hard to tame - which means that even the higher level units will have trouble clearing it sufficiently for settlers to move in. In early FfH, that was achieved by having a significant number of bears spawn from the dens, leading to a fairly massive buildup of them, which was a decent block to expansion without some effort, but also slowed things down a lot.

In our case, units that have been alive for a long time get stronger. The Lions that you see are therefore representing extra lions or a stronger, more successful group of them. Hunters and Rangers retain usefulness in that they still get a significant boost against those units, where Axemen begin to struggle (previously an axeman with a few promotions could clear the animals fairly safely, barring elephants). It means that the animals can provide a viable obstacle to a mid-late game empire, without needing to flood the map with them.

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Balance is going to be the key here again. We'd initially discussed it and I thought it had been reduced slightly from 9, but the best balancing information comes from a larger group of players. Both the rate at which animals gain strength (the number of turns they need to stay alive to gain +1) and the total number of times they can gain in the game are customizable, so it's fairly easy to tweak if the rates are too high. When reporting on the rates however, can you mention the difficulty you're playing at (high difficulties have much faster escalation rates).

 

[Sarisin]

I have to say, now that animals heal while moving and can effectively gather combat promotions by eating scouts, they seem plenty dangerous enough. Strength 12 lions are just ridiculous, and unrealistic compared to the game's power scale.

So I am not sure yet if I am for or against this new mechanic... I do like the passive growth of animals, but I feel it needs to be toned down to maybe 2-3 points of strength max.

Wait until you build Nature's Revolt.

It's like having a new, very powerful civ to deal with.

However, I am a little confused as when I built Nature's Revolt I'm pretty sure it said I was now at peace with the Animals

 

[Sarisin]

Didn't we reduce that to 5 or 6 in the end? Thought that was the plan at least...

===

In anycase, the theory behind it is similar to the one that caused the "bear-hordes" in early versions of Shadow. An area untouched by civilization will become increasingly wild and hard to tame - which means that even the higher level units will have trouble clearing it sufficiently for settlers to move in. In early FfH, that was achieved by having a significant number of bears spawn from the dens, leading to a fairly massive buildup of them, which was a decent block to expansion without some effort, but also slowed things down a lot.

In our case, units that have been alive for a long time get stronger. The Lions that you see are therefore representing extra lions or a stronger, more successful group of them. Hunters and Rangers retain usefulness in that they still get a significant boost against those units, where Axemen begin to struggle (previously an axeman with a few promotions could clear the animals fairly safely, barring elephants). It means that the animals can provide a viable obstacle to a mid-late game empire, without needing to flood the map with them.

===

Balance is going to be the key here again. We'd initially discussed it and I thought it had been reduced slightly from 9, but the best balancing information comes from a larger group of players. Both the rate at which animals gain strength (the number of turns they need to stay alive to gain +1) and the total number of times they can gain in the game are customizable, so it's fairly easy to tweak if the rates are too high. When reporting on the rates however, can you mention the difficulty you're playing at (high difficulties have much faster escalation rates).

Well, it is an interesting and new idea. No doubt Animals are no longer a gimme in FF. You have to go out and get them quick for your Grand Menagerie, but now for a different reason than they will die out and disappear.

One guy mentioned a good technique of taking an Archer (or Horse Archer) along with your Hunter/Ranger to wound the animal before capturing it. That works fine and I came upon what can definitely be an exploit. I was capturing Elephants with a strength of 15. For only 5 Gold I was able to turn them into VERY powerful War Elephants - although, for some reason, they dropped to strength 14. Still, a herd of these and your have some real Pachyderm Power.

As I mentioned in the previous post, Nature's Revolt really is a killer if you have to deal with animals.

All in all, I kinda like the way it is now, but I agree with Max that maybe having them that strong that soon in the game is a bit much.

 

[Sarisin]

One new feature that causes a little mayhem is allowing barb units to spawn just outside your border, move, and attack/pillage all in the same turn. Barb Wolf Riders are very good at this and I see no way to protect improvements that are within two tiles of your border besides putting defending units on each one.

When the AI gets into a Wolf-Rider spamming mode it can be messy to deal with.

Also, the game mechanism that warns you when enemy units are close by is useless as they do everything before you have a chance to react.

Something else to develop a new strategy for....

 

[Vehem]

One new feature that causes a little mayhem is allowing barb units to spawn just outside your border, move, and attack/pillage all in the same turn. Barb Wolf Riders are very good at this and I see no way to protect improvements that are within two tiles of your border besides putting defending units on each one.

Is that in Multiplayer/Simultaneous Turns? They shouldn't be able to move on the turn that they spawn, as they spawn after their turn is done (unless turns take place at the same time, in which case they take their next turn whilst you're taking yours).

All in all, I kinda like the way it is now, but I agree with Max that maybe having them that strong that soon in the game is a bit much.

Which is the bigger issue - the strength they can get to (max strength) or the rate of increase (escalation rate)?

 

[odalrick]

I was capturing Elephants with a strength of 15. For only 5 Gold I was able to turn them into VERY powerful War Elephants - although, for some reason, they dropped to strength 14. Still, a herd of these and your have some real Pachyderm Power.

War Elephants have 1 less strength than Elephants.

 

[Sarisin]

Is that in Multiplayer/Simultaneous Turns? They shouldn't be able to move on the turn that they spawn, as they spawn after their turn is done (unless turns take place at the same time, in which case they take their next turn whilst you're taking yours).



Which is the bigger issue - the strength they can get to (max strength) or the rate of increase (escalation rate)?

Vehem, I play only Single games vs. the computer. I am fairly certain it is happening just as I said.

I finish my turn. There is no Wolf Rider in sight. During the computer's turn a Wolf Rider is spawned one tile away from my border (not in a fogged area), the Wolf Rider moves, and if there is a unit within 2 tiles it attacks it. If there is an improvement within 2 tiles, it pillages it.

I don't think the max strength is as big an issue as how fast they increase in strength. As I said, there are ways to use other units to assist you in bringing them down, but the days of the lone Hunter seem to be numbered.

I have to say that in the early game it was somewhat tough for Scouts, but now it is much tougher. You really need to have Hunters with the way the Animals gain strength, and soon enough even they have problems with simple Wolves. I mentioned in another thread that I had some strong Hunters killed by 2 Wolves (strength 7), and a Gorilla (strength 9) and they were heavily promoted and had good combat odds.

I've only played two games so far, and I can't complain as it adds a new and different element to the already outstanding mod. I'd like to read what others think.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I like the animals... My current game I'm attempting to expand my Malakim empire, and failing miserably because of the animals. They control a 1/4 of the map... Makes for a challenging game, and I always enjoy having to fight over each bit of the map I take.

 

[jwin]

I also like the animals, just for the reason you mentioned: they provide an obstacle to expansion and between empires. While they get very strong, you just need to plan ahead on what you send into the wilderness.

In the water, it takes very powerful ships to clear an area. I needed the black wind and to ships with range attack to take down each one. Since most civs don't have access to the Black Wind, I am not sure what they would do. Maybe there should be a recon equivelant ship (just change one that exists a little) that has bonus versus animals, or a sea-hunter promotion?

For the barbs spawning closer to home, I no longer let workers wander around alone. I also leave units posted around the edges of the empire to soak up random barbs. More often than not, they will attack rather than go by and pillage. I haven't noticed the barbs moving before I get a chance to react, but will keep an eye out for it.

 

[Tarquelne]

Strength 12 lions are just ridiculous, and unrealistic compared to the game's power scale.

And imagine what they must be eating!

I'd be happier if either the animals were either visibly more fantasy-ish, or there was a big shift toward fantasy-animals when the strength increase goes beyond 2-3.

Or maybe just a backstory explaining why the animals are becoming such a menace. (Is there one already...?)

 

[heisenberg]

Hmmm... I scanned through Xien's response to animals no longer having HN... but does that mean that captured animals can no longer harass other civs w/o declaring war?
I was pretty sure the Spider I captured (back in patch B), was unable to enter another civ's territory with the usual declaration of war warning.

 

[Bezhukov]

I like the stronger animals, but on the issue of using mages to soften them up, what mages? The passive xp for adepts/mages seems to have been toned down way too much. I've even built several guilds/labs, and they still take forever to mature compared to regular.

Also not a fan of barbs spawning on visible tiles.

 

[Sarisin]

Hmmm... I scanned through Xien's response to animals no longer having HN... but does that mean that captured animals can no longer harass other civs w/o declaring war?
I was pretty sure the Spider I captured (back in patch B), was unable to enter another civ's territory with the usual declaration of war warning.

No more HN captured animals. As I said, I miss fun you can have harassing with HN Griffons and Spiders without having to declare war. And, with the extra strength they have it would have been even more fun.

Now, the HN Stooges and the Nightwatch are about it unless you are CoE, I guess.

 

[War Chicken]

Is Alcinus' chance to go mad (barbarian) really just 2 percent?
Everytime I get him, I (mostly) manage to stuff him in my second city and create that Building of him and after about 10 turns he goes wild and I need to kick his butt...

To the HN on Animals - I just caught a spider with patch D and it had HN...

 

[Vehem]

Is Alcinus' chance to go mad (barbarian) really just 2 percent?
Everytime I get him, I (mostly) manage to stuff him in my second city and create that Building of him and after about 10 turns he goes wild and I need to kick his butt...

To the HN on Animals - I just caught a spider with patch D and it had HN...

By the end of 10 turns, he's had around a 18% total chance to go wild, so it's possible. By 20 turns, it's around 43%...

Chance to turn Barbarian by a given turn (might be early) = 0.98^TurnNumber

Turn	%Chance		Turn	%Chance
1	2.00		26	40.86
2	3.96		27	42.04
3	5.88		28	43.20
4	7.76		29	44.34
5	9.61		30	45.45
6	11.42		31	46.54
7	13.19		32	47.61
8	14.92		33	48.66
9	16.63		34	49.69
10	18.29		35	50.69
11	19.93		36	51.68
12	21.53		37	52.65
13	23.10		38	53.59
14	24.64		39	54.52
15	26.14		40	55.43
16	27.62		41	56.32
17	29.07		42	57.19
18	30.49		43	58.05
19	31.88		44	58.89
20	33.24		45	59.71
21	34.57		46	60.52
22	35.88		47	61.31
23	37.17		48	62.08
24	38.42		49	62.84
25	39.65		50	63.58

The chance is 2% each turn, but the table shows how that stacks up over time...

 

[War Chicken]

ok, now I understand, but whats the point in having him then? - he's (exept of his nice building) just a nuisance.

 

[Valkrionn]

ok, now I understand, but whats the point in having him then? - he's (exept of his nice building) just a nuisance.

Need him for your worldspell. Personally, I find the system useful, if just because I know when I eventually get him back he'll have spells he otherwise would not have access to.

 

[Tarquelne]

He just came back to me with, among other things, "Ambition." I didn't even know the Khadi were in the game.

He boosts Rituals for your whole civ, and sometime I'd like to have him give a passive-xp rate boost for Adepts in his stack. (Maybe move Calcinating from the Keep to Alcinus directly.)

The Barb chance can be reduced.

xienwolf, Vehem: can a % chance of less than 1 be assigned?

It could also be made into an Event, but I think it might be too hard to control the rate.

 

[Sarisin]

Well, lookie here what popped out of an explored lair on only Turn 57!

It was great to get the Ogre Warchief, but he couldn't hold off his lesser brethern and my Scout was also killed. Turn 57.

Earlier, the AI popped an Azer boss out of a lair or something and it has already destroyed 3 civs.

With the AI's zeal to go out and explore all the lairs now, some big, bad nasties are showing up VERY early in the game making for quick work of some civs.

Would it be possible to tone down some of these early results?

Thanks.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

AI exploring lairs is AWESOME, but the big bad results should not be allowed to happen very early game imho. they can indeed wipe out entire civilizations very early on, making the game dull..