Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[to_xp]Gekko;7718905 said:
AI exploring lairs is AWESOME, but the big bad results should not be allowed to happen very early game imho. they can indeed wipe out entire civilizations very early on, making the game dull..

The problem becomes that by blocking early game bigBad/bigGood results, you remove some of the excitement from exploration during those phases. That being said, the old answer of "don't risk it if you can't afford to lose it" doesn't apply to the AI - it always wants to explore...

It is something that is currently being discussed on the team forum though...
 
I today explred a lair at turn 100ish and it said I found a lich that was responsible for the things going on in there.

I was like "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD RUN!" until I found out, that was my Lich with Death III now.
Some barbarians recieved some really heavy punishment then :D
 
BTW, I could really use a save where I can just click a button and get one of these lair spawns which grants some of the units to the human. I have NEVER managed to recreate this on my computer, so I have to blindly guess at where I made mistakes in the code. When I claimed to have fixed it I actually found a fairly major snafu which didn't seem possible to cause the observed error, but would have caused SOME errors, and was the best I had found so far.


So anyway... if anyone likes to save immediately before each lair they explore and thus winds up with a nice guaranteed you WILL gain a unit on reload and explore... it'd help :)


EDIT: I finally found where this was happening, and this time the code even said for sure that it would happen. So it is finally fixed and no more monsters should pop under incorrect control.
 
Are random Iras from hell terrain supposed to be this poweful? This thing ran through half my cities before I could even hurt him. Thats when I first saw it. After couple of cities it got bunch of 1st strikes, march and stuff.

All and all the demons from hell terrain wiped out all civs exept the ones showing there really fast. The few remaining were short to follow. Seems a little hard for the AI. I was able block the demons with couple choke points.
 

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I today explred a lair at turn 100ish and it said I found a lich that was responsible for the things going on in there.

I was like "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD RUN!" until I found out, that was my Lich with Death III now.
Some barbarians recieved some really heavy punishment then :D

Those kinds of results need to be in the Very, Very Good Results from lairs as it can be a game winner for you.

I got a Lich like you in my last game and it was unstoppable for a long time.

Previously, I got a Gargoyle and I posted the pic of my Ogre Warchief - although he was quickly killed by the other Ogres who came out of the lair.

My latest in my current game was to get 3 Treants - two AI barb Treants and one for me. I put mine on a nearby hill/forest tile and it defended against one of the others. Now the 2nd one is chasing me around the map same as the Gargoyle Chase I described in the other thread in this forum.

But, you gotta love getting a permanent Treant from a lair - especially playing as the Elves. :D
 
IRA gain strength with each unit they kill, up to a max of 32 or so. I should probably make them require a more advanced Tech than Warfare, but until someone has known that for a fair while, you won't see any (due to the demons not knowing the tech either)

And chokepoints shouldn't work against an IRA, since they can move straight across mountains. I'm working on making sure that they stop working against the other Barbarians as well and begin to be something which they use against you instead (and other AI players as a side-effect).


Oh, and the nifty beasties from lair are a thing of the past come next patch. Finally found the real error for it.
 
Oh, and the nifty beasties from lair are a thing of the past come next patch. Finally found the real error for it.

Er, are you saying the nifty beasties the human gets will be patched out, while those the barbs get stay?

If so, I think I'll skip that patch. :D
 
Thank you so much for creating the Mazatl Civ - since starting using Fall Further (from FFH) last week I have completely fallen in love with the civ.

I do have some suggestions. All are based on the premise (derived from the lore in the civ desription) that the Mazatl should be defending against attackers by ambushing/harrying them as they advance through the jungle towards the city, rather than defending by fortifying within a city. Here are the three current problems with this, in decending order of importance, as well as possible suggestions.

Problem 1 - Deep Jungle grants a 25% defensive bonus to the invading army. This creates a situation where you are better of fortifying in your cities. Excluding the possibility of fortifying a wall of your own units along your border and acting as defender (which doesn't fit fit the idea of ambushing/harrying the enemy, imho) and saying you attack the enemy, they will have the 25% defensive bonus, and you will have a 25% jungle attack from being lizardmen - effectivly a wash. Worse if they are on a hilled jungle, which they often are. Compare to fortifying within a city, which gives cultural bonus, fortifying bonus, unit bonuses (warriors, archers, blowpipes), building bonuses, and potentially a hill bonus. Getting woodsman promotion doesn't help much, as you could have instead gotten combat I for most of the benefit, or if city is on hills then hill defense for a greater benefit. I'd suggest doing both of the following:

Suggestion a (changes to lizard racial promotion) - Change lizard attack bonus on jungle and deep jungle to 75% (from 25%). Leave lizard defense bonus at 25%.

Suggestion b - Give lizard a minus to defending cities. Maybe -25%, which would cancel the bonuses archers, blowpipes, and warriors enjoy. Though I'd think -50% would be better.

I don't think these changes would overpower the civilization - mostly they would just switch the balance to attacking outside of cities. However, my suggestions on the second problem will reduce their power anyway. Or, perhaps a penalty to city attack, since they are better in the tactics of the jungle than organized formations of city attack.

Problem 2 - Lizards have the defensive trait, which increases the build rate of walls and pallisades. Contributes to the situation above, though in a more minor way. I'd suggest doing one of the following:

Suggestion a - Eliminate the defender trait and leave them only possessing agnostic and spirtitual. Roll the defender benefits desired into either the lizard trait directly (no reason it can't have the homeland promotion benefits) or do it indirectly by creating a larger attack bonus into deep jungles over normal jungles (since their culutural borders will usually be deep jungles). Downside is this would have to be balanced with the evil lizardmen civ's traits, whereas the other suggestions apply equally to both. Also would reduce build rate of archery range and fletcher.

Suggestion b - Eliminate their ability to build city walls and pallasade. I think this is best, no unintended consequences and further encourages defense outside the city.

Suggestion c - Eliminate defender and have palace grant homeland promotion to units directly (if possible).

Problem 3 - Earth mana is among starting. On the one hand, fits flavor considering their relationship with the earth god, though on the other hand they will get an instance of this if they recover their mountain anyway. Downside is earth mana is predominantly defensive - They can use it to cast wall of stone (which is a problem in that it is for city defense) and to cast stoneskin (which increases defensive strength, again helping defensive strategy). Further, the chance of finding minerals is next to useless - they will be cottaging rather than mining hills that don't have recources, given their civics. Leaves its only benefit as earth elementals, which are fine but...I think a type of mana that offers other options might be appropriate.

Again, thank you for the wonderful mod, and especially for the chance to play as lizardmen,

Tim

(edited to delete suggestion regarding woodsman II - I had forgoten that it is only available to recon units, which already have sufficient incentives not to defend in cities.)
 
IRA gain strength with each unit they kill, up to a max of 32 or so. I should probably make them require a more advanced Tech than Warfare, but until someone has known that for a fair while, you won't see any (due to the demons not knowing the tech either)

Don't you think that's a bit much? Something like that could annihilate most of the mega units in the game single handedly, with no promotions. Unless they've been buffed in FF too ?
 
By the end of 10 turns, he's had around a 18% total chance to go wild, so it's possible. By 20 turns, it's around 43%...

Chance to turn Barbarian by a given turn (might be early) = 0.98^TurnNumber

Code:
Turn	%Chance		Turn	%Chance
1	2.00		26	40.86
2	3.96		27	42.04
3	5.88		28	43.20
4	7.76		29	44.34
5	9.61		30	45.45
6	11.42		31	46.54
7	13.19		32	47.61
8	14.92		33	48.66
9	16.63		34	49.69
10	18.29		35	50.69
11	19.93		36	51.68
12	21.53		37	52.65
13	23.10		38	53.59
14	24.64		39	54.52
15	26.14		40	55.43
16	27.62		41	56.32
17	29.07		42	57.19
18	30.49		43	58.05
19	31.88		44	58.89
20	33.24		45	59.71
21	34.57		46	60.52
22	35.88		47	61.31
23	37.17		48	62.08
24	38.42		49	62.84
25	39.65		50	63.58

The chance is 2% each turn, but the table shows how that stacks up over time...

That seems a bit insane. Wouldn't he eventually hit 100% and just become pointless?

I can understand the chance to go insane as an occasional thing, but this kind of system is going to be making it happen all the time.

Would it not be possible to make killing him reset it back to 2%, at least ?
 
It IS 2%, but it is 2% each turn. What Vehem is showing you isn't how the chance per turn changes, but how likely you are to ever keep him for that many turns. It is like saying that the chances of flipping a coin and getting heads is 50%, but the chances of getting heads twice in a row is only 25%.


And on the Ira, they were designed to only exist as 4 of them at a time, and only as summoned by the Avatar of Wrath. But we have opened up Hell far better recently, so wanted to allow them ALL of their toys. I had mis-guessed as to how late Warfare would come into the game though, so they should fit better at Blasting Powder now.
 
No Warkirby.
When I understood this right this list displays a sum up of the chance on a chosen turn.
If Alcinus had 2% chance to go barb each turn, there is a overall chance that he went barbarian in theese 4 turns of 7,76%.
The chance doesn't get bigger each turn, but the chance that the 2% were hit in one or the turns increases over time.
Thats just stochastic math - calculation of probability.

EDIT: Ups, too late
 
Should have Alcinus start glowing once you've had him 35 turns...
 
It IS 2%, but it is 2% each turn. What Vehem is showing you isn't how the chance per turn changes, but how likely you are to ever keep him for that many turns. It is like saying that the chances of flipping a coin and getting heads is 50%, but the chances of getting heads twice in a row is only 25%.

I see. I understand now. That's ok then.

And on the Ira, they were designed to only exist as 4 of them at a time, and only as summoned by the Avatar of Wrath. But we have opened up Hell far better recently, so wanted to allow them ALL of their toys. I had mis-guessed as to how late Warfare would come into the game though, so they should fit better at Blasting Powder now.

I'm still worried about this, though. Only 4? One of those things could tear their way through an average empire once they learn march. I'm inclined to say that allowing a strength 32 unit that doesn't take 5000 :hammers: to build and require an AC of 70, is a bit much in any case, and 4 of them would be horrible.

Seems like they have the potential to be significantly stronger than the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and these are just... I don't know, what are they? I've never heard of Ira in any legends. They don't seem like something that should be so significant.

I just think 32 as a strength cap is too high.
 
Just something to let the earlier posts know, building the nature's revolt makes you at peace with the animals, which may be either a good thing or a bad thing. :)

So, yes, uber-animals, but they're on your side.
 
Just something to let the earlier posts know, building the nature's revolt makes you at peace with the animals, which may be either a good thing or a bad thing. :)

So, yes, uber-animals, but they're on your side.

But, do you have a chance to 'declare war' on them again by getting a popup by moving your unit to a tile with an animal on it?

My game ended before I had a chance to try this and I was wondering if you get the same mechanism as with a civ with the Barbarian trait.
 
My 3rd game (v. .50d) I did not select Barbarian World.

Initially, there was a bit more raging barb activity, but it simply dried up on short order. I rarely saw more than 1-2 barbs in my territory, and into turn 400+ (epic speed), still about 95% goblins and warriors with an occasional axeman. No barb Lizardmen yet and that seems strange this far into the game.

One thing that is missing, and I am certainly not complaining, is that you don't seem to get the Lizardmen and Skeletons spawning from ruins and barrows like in previous versions. They were sometimes a challenge in the early going before, but now I haven't seen them at all.

The big change was, of course, the introduction of the lair bosses that have been demolishing AI civs.

I see the barb spawning grouping is changing as well as when the lair bosses spawn.
 
Suggestion/comment:

I've been seeing the AIs eat it faster in Fall Further than any other mod I've played, including the wierdness of them falling faster in FF with Raging/Barb World OFF, as opposed to Fall from Heaven with Raging/Barb world ON.

The only thing I can think of is that lair results are killing mass hordes of AIs. Is there any way to tell them to do what I do - that is, not explore a lair until they have sufficent defenses against Big Nasties that come out of it, but sit on a spawn-lair until then? I've found that to be an effective strategy for shutting off the flow of units so I can build without getting slaughtered because my explorers dug up a hero.

And lastly, it is a fact: Samhain in addition to this will cause at LEAST three civs to bite it.
 
The problem becomes that by blocking early game bigBad/bigGood results, you remove some of the excitement from exploration during those phases. That being said, the old answer of "don't risk it if you can't afford to lose it" doesn't apply to the AI - it always wants to explore...

It is something that is currently being discussed on the team forum though...

Recently got litch bigbad... reeeealy early game.

This things FAR worse than getting Azers! It summons a Wraith a turn, and with it having summoner trait... Thats 3 wraiths. This was fairly early game. 5-6 warriors in my experiance handles a 3 azer spawn.
10 warriors ALMOST handled the litch. With experiance.
 
I have to give the changes to lairs and barbarians in patch E a thumbs up - only played one game with it but it seems a definite improvement so far. No AIs died early. The new barbarians coming in groups are more interesting, and a bit less 'whack-a-mole' which is always a good thing.

Didn't see any abnormalities from lair exploration.

Stability is good. Not one crash of any kind (mind, I'm only playing a standard map - I'm going to move up to large for my next game).
 
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