"Fall Patch" announced

[Cromagnus]

Yes but now when I see an enemy's army coming I can see him all my extra lux and get them back when he DOWs (as it is already the case) and then sell it a second time to anyone before it get pillaged.

This exploit will offset the expected rise in difficulty induced by this mechanism at emperor+.

I wouldn't expect this to make Immortal/Deity harder unless the AI is suddenly very effective at raiding. If they were smart, yes, but... One of the reasons the AI fails to cap cities is they *usually* don't come in with a super organized rush. And on offense, it'll be *easier* for me to cap an AI city, because I can do this:

Turn 1) Catapults move into range and set up.
Turn 2) If damaged, catapults pillage/heal then attack. Otherwise just attack, saving that pillage for if they get damaged.

I *always* pillage farms (and often luxuries) with my catapults, so this isn't going to change anything for me, it'll just make it easier.

(I pillage luxuries if it's a lux I already have for trade. The idea being, hopefully, that this breaks a trade agreement so I can swoop in and replace them as the trading partner... although I'm not actually sure if the AI trades luxuries amongst themselves...)


So, they've made siege easier for the player, but I highly doubt it will help the AI.

 

[Txurce]

Also, keep in mind that if the AI is slowing down to pillage, they're taking more fire. You can pillage heal all you want, but if I can focus fire and take out one unit per turn, it'll actually make the AI *less effective* at siege. Unless they secretly improved the combat AI without telling us. ;-)

So, end result? They stop to pillage, get owned, which stalls out their attack, and ends the siege quickly. Cue workers to get a new trade deal going.

Yeah, game changer in MP. Not sure about SP. If you're playing on Deity, it's not like pillaging an AI is hurting them in any significant way. And on defense, they probably won't use the tactic effectively. But, man, game changer in MP for sure!

I agree we're reading tea leaves until we see just how effectively the AI pillage. Based on my experience with the pre-G&K VEM mod, they could do it very well. Keep in mind that some luxuries are out of range of the typical SP defender force, and that at higher levels the AI tends to congregate excess units outside a city. Especially at higher levels, they definitely have the manpower to both attack and pillage. Finally, those random wandering AI units away from the main action may now become random pillaging units.

 

[Cromagnus]

I agree we're reading tea leaves until we see just how effectively the AI pillage. Based on my experience with the pre-G&K VEM mod, they could do it very well. Keep in mind that some luxuries are out of range of the typical SP defender force, and that at higher levels the AI tends to congregate excess units outside a city. Especially at higher levels, they definitely have the manpower to both attack and pillage. Finally, those random wandering AI units away from the main action may now become random pillaging units.

Right, impossible to say until we get the patch. Very curious to see how increased pillaging of strategic resources by AI affects combat.

 

[Djinn8]

If you want to see how the AI uses pillaging to its advantage you can play the Fall of Rome scenario. The guys north of Byzantium have the mecahnic as their UA.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Getting desperate for this patch now. As of one month ago I have a beautiful shiny new laptop which can handle all the max settings (and bigger than Standard-sized maps! Finally!!) but the downside is that because I can move around a lot faster, I seem to be getting walloped by the scrollbug. Can't wait for it to be fixed...

 

[Socratatus]

Getting desperate for this patch now. As of one month ago I have a beautiful shiny new laptop which can handle all the max settings (and bigger than Standard-sized maps! Finally!!) but the downside is that because I can move around a lot faster, I seem to be getting walloped by the scrollbug. Can't wait for it to be fixed...

Is that where the scroll arrow gets stuck and you end up staring a nothing for the entire AI`s turn? I get that too.

 

[Ikael]

This right here:

Cultural expansion should mildly steer towards tiles that are near unclaimed resources.

Is a nerf to the already weak American UA :/

 

[shaglio]

It'll certainly take you longer to get that tile repaired even if you win the battle. And you'll have lots of tiles to repair, which will hurt. And in the meantime, you're probably going negative on happiness and definitely losing gold/production. So, this is definitely going to make it rough to be under siege. However! The cash will compensate for the damages done.

This got me to thinking: in those long, drawn-out wars that seem to last for eternity with not much progress, both sides will probably be pillaging each other heavily. If they pillage enough of each other’s Luxury Resources it’ll cause a lot of unhappiness, thereby acting as a sort of War Weariness factor. Sieges, however will weigh more heavily upon the defender’s happiness and not on the attacker’s.

 

[Gort]

They need to give bombers and artillery the ability to pillage at range. It could have a percentage chance to fail, and give no gold (obviously).

 

[truenarnian]

Wow. That was a good analysis.

I agree that the fact that some things are so predicatable and others are so random is weird. I actually think they should use the religion approach to Great Prophet generation, where there is a weighted randomness to everything.

So, for example, for Germany, every time they DIDN'T get a free unit, it would increase their chances of getting one; every time they get one, it would decrease the chances they'll get one next time.

As for how much Science is generated by Great Scientists (and all the systems that are similar, I think it should be random based on a range, with a weight towards the middle of the range (like how 7 is the most common roll of two six-sided dice). Every once in a while a Scientist might be amazingly brilliant - other times, merely a decent contribution to your science output.

Woaow.

So let's follow your logic. Bushido (Japan's UA) involves no intrinsic randomness in itself, it's just free extra strenght for you damaged units. So it's unimaginative, it's boring, and certainly not realistic (that last bit I can agree with); furthermore, this leads to a situation where we are awarded an "I win" button. Thus, Bushido is overpowered and should be nerfed, by associating it with some intrinsic randomness. But wait! All of the UAs (besides, IIRC, Germany's, Spain's and Ottoman's) aren't tied to luck, so maybe it would just be easier to buff those UAs instead? Thus, we reach my conclusion, even though we are following your set of rules: intrinsic randomness should be avoided.

You also say that every choice and decision has possible failure. Well, if I'm 400 beakers away from researching construction, and I'm producing 100 beakers per turn, expending a GS will grant me construction, no matter what. So you say that GS would be more strategic and fun if they gave a random amount of beakers? Well, I certainly can't agree about either of those qualities. Just in case it's really needed, let's pull a reductio ad absurdum: let's just determine the winner of a game of Civ 5 by throwing a dice. Man, was that fun and strategic!

And your definition of gaming is just the definition of what a game needs for it to be fun to you. Chess is a game, and it has no luck; the list of Boardgames that have no luck is crazy, so I'll leave it at that. Greed Corp is a strategy video game, and it has no luck. Heck, even Starcraft has minimal intrinsic luck. When I play a game, I don't want to lose because the RNG said so, I wan't to lose because I've been outsmarted. You don't need dice for you not to know how an encounter will end.

Now, I'm ok with some intrinsic randomness. The unknown outcome of a battle is ok to me, since the other side of the encounter won't get to react until I'm done, and generally luck is smoothed out after two or three turns (albeit I'd like it if ranged attacks had less variance in their results). But for germany, for its UA to smooth out, you may be talking about dozens of turns, with no way to control that, and one brute now is much better than one archer in 30 turns. Germany and prize ships are more subject to intrinsic randomness than any other thing in the game (except from Spain, but at least their gameplay is different enough from the rest to make them somewhat fun to play).

Long story short: intrinsic luck makes a game less strategic, you can argue that it makes it more tactical (not that I would agree with you, but still), and how fun it is depends on the person you ask.

 

[bcaiko]

Is a nerf to the already weak American UA :/

Not really. The fact that other Civs are more likely to get a tile they like is balanced by the fact that America will also get the tile they'd like but more quickly. Also, just because the tile selection has gotten smarter doesn't mean there aren't situations where you'll want to purchase that tile NOW ("I'll take that Iron resource now, thanks. Yoink!").

If it is a nerf, it's a small one. And G&K indirectly buffed America by making Musket/Minutemen infinitely more viable (being on the direct upgrade path and available for the BAMABG 4 promotions on creation trick).

 

[cakes]

wow barbs are going to be annoying

 

[fuzzatron717]

Barbarians already pillage but I do agree with you barbarians are going to be extremely annoying.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Barbarians already pillage but I do agree with you barbarians are going to be extremely annoying.

He may mean that now they will pillage and heal. Before barbarians had no way of healing.

 

[flairin]

If you want to see how the AI uses pillaging to its advantage you can play the Fall of Rome scenario. The guys north of Byzantium have the mecahnic as their UA.

So you are referring to the Goths?? I haven't played but it appears that you don't have to wait to see the AI doing it but can actually select this Civ!! I wonder if there is a way to nerf their healing from 100% after pillaging (as long as it isn't a road) to 25% just to see how it would play out?? Anyone out there know how to do this??

 

[Heinage]

So you are referring to the Goths?? I haven't played but it appears that you don't have to wait to see the AI doing it but can actually select this Civ!! I wonder if there is a way to nerf their healing from 100% after pillaging (as long as it isn't a road) to 25% just to see how it would play out?? Anyone out there know how to do this??

But that still wouldn't show us what it will be like post-patch.

What you mean is "get 25HP from pillaging", not "25% healing from pillaging"

 

[blackcatatonic]

I think I will be deploying the sacrificial worker trick to stop barbarians from pillaging my lands...

 

[Gort]

Well, if barbarians are so bad, just take Honour as your first policy and play as the Aztecs. Barbarians become goody huts full of culture to the Honourable Aztec.

 

[patsfan454]

i like how they release patch notes before a patch so you can see what was overpowered in the previous patch... now to play austria

 

[bcaiko]

wow barbs are going to be annoying

He may mean that now they will pillage and heal. Before barbarians had no way of healing.

We have no confirmation that the HP gain from pillaging will apply to barbs. And, are you even seeing that many barbs post-G&K? In my experience they spawn so infrequently now, even with Raging Barbs on, that they're really a non-issue.