Fall Weiss

[Marko]

This thread is for comments and suggestions about the scenario.

It is very far from completion yet and everything can still be changed or added.


FALL WEISS

Civ2 MGE scenario about the beginning of WW2 in Europe.

Nations which are included into the scenario: Germany(+Slovakia), Poland, Soviet Union, Hungary, Rumania, Lithuania, Denmark(+Sweden). Only Germany and Poland are playable (playing as Russia is too easy).

The map (quite big one <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>) includes all Poland, Lithuania and Slovakia, most of Germany and Austria, some parts of Soviet Union, northern territories of Rumania and Hungary, and southern half of Denmark + a small part of Sweden.

Scenario start from September 1 and end in October 31, 1939. One turn represents 1 day, so there are maximum 61 turns.
Germany and Poland are in war from the beginning. In September 17, Soviet Union join the war, attacking Poland from east.

There will be 3 versions of the scenario: German, Polish and Multiplayer.

In German version you must take all objective cities before the end of the scenario.
In Polish version you must have at least one objective city in the end.
Objective cities are Warszawa, Krakow, Lodz, Poznan, Lvov and Danzig.


UNITS

GENERAL

Field Fortress
Fortification
Anti-Tank Gun
105mm Gun
AA Gun
Airborne
Armored Car
General
Cavalry
Transport
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Submarine


GERMANY

Panzer I
Panzer II
Panzer 35(t)
Panzer 38(t)
Panzer III
Panzer IV
SdKfs-10/4
German Infantry
Motocyclists
Me-109
Me-110
Ju-87 Stuka
Hs-123
Do-17
He-111
Ju-88


POLAND

7-TP
TK-3
TKS
Renault FT-17
Vickers 6.0
R-35
Polish infantry
PZL P-11
PZL P-24
PZL P-7
PZL P-37
PZL P-23


SOVIET UNION

T-18
T-26
T-27
T-28
T-35
T-37
T-38
T-40
BT-2
BT-5
BT-7
KV-1
SU-45
Red Infantry
NKVD Troopers
I-15
I-16
R-10
SB-2


All suggestions are welcome to help to make this scenario better.
For example I haven't thought much about which wonders to use in the scenario.



[This message has been edited by Marko (edited April 20, 2001).]

 

[willemvanoranje]

Sounds to me as if it's a really nice scenario, too bad it's for MGE. I only have FW.

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Concordia res parvae cres****.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Why are using Paratroops for a Case White scenario? Germany kept it's airborne units in reserve until the attack on Norway in 1940. If the scenario functions like history, Poland hasn't got a fighting chance. I would eliminate the KV-1 from the Soviet OoB. It wasn't used until the begining of Barbarossa by the Soviets. Not seeing it was one of the reasons the Germans were so confident in 1941. They had no idea it existed. It could be an interesting situation, but really only from the German side. Civ-2 cannot simulate the mass confusion and disaray that ruined Poland's mobilization. Also, if the historical defense that Poland used (Fortify Western border), the Germans should be able to have the game won in the first two weeks of the attack.

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[weimar_republic]

my dream scenario... I hope I dont wake up in like 2 minutes, and have to tell all my friends that I had anouther dream about the net.

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Whats the point of living if you cant do anything stupid?
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[Field Marshal Klesh]

This is great Marko! I love how as more and more WWII sceanrios come out, we as designers are pushed to examine more specific events and occourances. How is the design comming along? This'll prolly be out before Stalingrad!

I can't seem get my stuff done fast enough.

 

[Marko]

I added the KV-1 because I wanted that this unit is in Civilopedia - to show the level of Soviet tank technology in 1939. It doesn't appear in the front and is unbuildable.

Here is thing what I always wonder: Germany attacked Soviet Union without having any intelligence about its military forces. Soviets had thousands of T-34s and more than 600 KV-1 and Germans claim that they didn't know about these tanks <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/confused.gif" border=0>

Yes, you are right that Germany didn't use paratroopers against Poland. I think that I put them far away from Polish borders and make them unbuildable. AI never moves paratroopers, it only paradrop them if there is empty enemy city in range. So they are not in the campaign unless Polish army invades into German territory

Does anybody know, did Russians use paratroopers against Poland or not?


[This message has been edited by Marko (edited April 21, 2001).]

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I understand now, Marko. The question of Soviet armor, the Germans were completly unaware that the Soviets had such advanced designs as the T-34 and KV-1. The first reported encounter with KV-1 was near the river Daugava, on June 25, 1941.The spearhead of the XLI Panzer corps, the 6th Panzer division, encoutered the Soviet III Armored Corps, which had KV-1s as part of their inventory. I have never heard of any Soviet Airborne units being used in a jump in the Polish attack. It would be unlikely anyway, as Poland's army was in dire straits from the German attack, when Stalin delievered the stab in the back to Poland.

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[weimar_republic]

"On September 1, 1939 the Second World War began with the German blitzkrieg in Poland. The
modern German army swept past the Polish defenses. By previous agreement, Russia shared in the
invasion. Britain and France immediately declared war on Germany, and the British sent an army
across the Channel.

The conquest of Poland was over in less than a month. Germany annexed wide stretches of
territory that had once been held by the Kingdom of Prussia. In the small territory left with the name
Poland, the so-called "General Government" was an instrument of German domination. Anti-Jewish
legislation was imposed across the country. Millions of Jews were herded into ghettos and
eventually concentration camps. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact guaranteed the Soviets a free hand
on the Baltic coast. Stalin's armies first imposed protectorates over the Baltic republics and
occupied them with Soviet troops. Within a year, staged elections annexed the Baltics to the
USSR. "

this is all I know

where is this from??? read my nest thread on 'old maps, new maps, gold maps, blue maps'

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Whats the point of living if you cant do anything stupid?
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[burak]

Maybe Poland could win by holding on so long that some reinforcements from Allies would come. And Soviets shouldn't attack just at 17 september but when German army reaches a certain point (maybe attack Lvov?).
Vilna was an important polish city too.

 

[thealien_83]

Sounds like a good scenario, definitely better researched and performed than I could ever pull off, that's for sure! But I have to agree, by all logical means Poland wouldn't stand that much of a chance, unless of course playing on a low level of difficulty. But it is certainly interesting, so kudos to you Marko!

 

[SunTzu]

actually i think i've heard of russia paradropping into Poland.
Scenario sounds good

very good.
Can't wait hmmm Playtester?

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Civilization God of War & Economic Prosperity
http://www.civfanatics.com Staff and forum moderator

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[Siggy]

<FONT COLOR="Black">Text</FONT c>
Yhe russians probably did not paradrop in Poland. If they did, they did it in such small numbers that the event wouldn't be relevant for the scenario.

Marko, make sure you use antitank guns in the scenario. The Polish army did have 37mm anti tank guns capable of knocking out German tanks. They just hadn't them in large numbers. I also didn't see any german PAK. What about the Polish airforce? How about FLAK?

Be warned that using this number of tank/armour car units might create a unbalanced, panzer heavy scenario. Make sure that a army is in proportion with it's historical operational strength at that time! Use the correct images for the different types of tanks. (ex: short barrelled pzIV kwk75/L24 instead of long barrelled pzIV kwk75/l43 or even L48.)

Make sure to include Cavalry... etc...

greetings and good luck,

Siggy

 

[Tracid00]

Very good work on your researching. I jsut wnat to add that in history the polish airforce didn´t fly really long, only 14 days to be correct. Neverteheless, the germans lost a total of more than 150 planes destroyed or damaged, 0ver 80 per cent of the casualties from polish flak!!! Maybe a good way to simulate this wuold be to change city walls to flak defenses or create some kind of special FLAK unit for Poland in key places (invisible?!?).
If you need any historical help, just e-mail me. Keep up the good work!!!

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TRACID

"Attacking the enemy´s plans is best; next is to attack his alliances; next to attack his army; the worst is to attack their cities." Sun-Tzu (the Art of War)

 

[kobayashi]

I don't know whether this is relevant. In the Frank Capra documentary film, it says that Warsaw refused to surrender and was under siege for quite a while. In the end, the Germans transported all their giant howitzers (not the mega ones on rails) from the siegfried line in the west and pounded the city into rubble.

Also, do you think the calvary should be a polish unit instead of a general unit (or did the russians use them too at that time)?

p.s. did you get any of your info from this website
http://mops.uci.agh.edu.pl/~rzepinsk/1939/index2.htm

and there is a fantastic polish section here
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/




[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited June 03, 2001).]

 

[Tracid00]

Yeah, the cavalry was even used by the germans that time!!! And the russian used it well into operation barbarossa, i think the last reported cavalry charge of the second world war was in the battle of budapest 1945...

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TRACID

"Attacking the enemy´s plans is best; next is to attack his alliances; next to attack his army; the worst is to attack their cities." Sun-Tzu (the Art of War)

 

[Siggy]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
I don't know whether this is relevant. In the Frank Capra documentary film, it says that Warsaw refused to surrender and was under siege for quite a while. In the end, the Germans transported all their giant howitzers (not the mega ones on rails) from the siegfried line in the west and pounded the city into rubble.

Also, do you think the calvary should be a polish unit instead of a general unit (or did the russians use them too at that time)?

What kind of Howitzers do they mean? The same ones the germans used at sebastopol (Crimea)?

Cavalry should be a general unit. The Polish did use them for sure. The germans had a cavalry division in the front line as late as Barbarossa and also later on in the war on the eastern Front. Germans used cavalry also for anti-partisan duty and in areas which where hard to manouver, like the Pripjet marches for instance. The russians used cavalry units throughout the war. The russians mostly did use cavalry for the fast exploits of breakthrougs in the german front line. They didn't really fight like cavalry in the sence of the old fashioned charge (they did occur sometimes though)Perhaps they should be named mounted infantry. They mostly used the horses for transport.

The Polish cavalry did charge german tanks during Fall Weiss. They where massacred by the coax and bow-machineguns of the panzers. The last "old fashioned" cavalry charge took place on the Fillipines in the beginning of 1942, somewhere on the Bataan Peninsula. US-cavalry succesfully charged a advancing japanese unit, chased them out of a village and prevented a japanese force crossing some river. I don't know which village it was or which units were involved.

 

[Siggy]

Perhaps another suggestion for the scenario: Fall Weiss was a quite short operation during the war. If you do like a historical scenario, make sure that the players cannot build any new units. Just give them what they actually had and let them fight it.

If this is to drastic you might want to let them build infantry or other basic units. Do not let the Polish player build too many tanks for instance. It will spoil the scenario...

 

[burak]

Films showing polish cavalry charging on german tanks were made by german propaganda. Polish soldiers weren't so stupid to attack panzers with sabres. They used horse-towed anti-tank guns.
BTW Do You intend to make any other scenario about Poland? I would suggest sth about russian revolution and polish-russian war in 1919-1920

 

[Siggy]

Hmm, guess you're right, Burak. Every commander using his brain doesn't order his men to charge tanks with sabres. Excuses.

Even found a scenario in Steel Panthers about Polish cavalry against german advancing column with some armoured support. Offcourse I do use the Anti-tank gun which is provided to keep the armor at bay. Did the Polish use any anti-tank rifles in this stage of the war? I guess you know that, Burak.

 

[Tracid00]

Ich möchte anmerken, dass trotz der unbestreitbaren guten bis mittelmäßigen taktischen Führung der Polen polnische Kavalerie WIRKLICH deutsche Panzer mit gezogenem Säbel attackierte. Wobei der Grund weniger Selbstmord als vielmehr der war, dass bei einem Zusammentreffen mit Panzern die einzige Überlebenschance darin bestand, so schnell wie möglich aus dem Feuerbereich zu kommen. Und der schnellste Weg war dann natürlich der direkt an den Panzern vorbei, da diese zu dieser Zeit noch Mindestschussweiten besaßen...

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TRACID

"Attacking the enemy´s plans is best; next is to attack his alliances; next to attack his army; the worst is to attack their cities." Sun-Tzu (the Art of War)