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Famous Korean civ youtuber discusses Sejong controversy.

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Kupe Navigator said:
Sejong could've been culture and science leader who gave Korea edge in cultural victory with Great works of writing.
I am mad that they didn't do anything with bookworm concept of Sejong. It would've been stereotypical yes but at least it would've meant something to Sejong!
Click to expand...
Absolutely not. The base Korean civ is OP, as it is. They literally painted themselves into a design corner.

Hopefully in Civ VII, they'll ditch the Korea = MOAR Science !!!?! and go with a cultural focus. It would be a refreshing change.
 
Haig said:
I think it might be best to switch Korean civ for Siam or Burma in Civ 7 so the People of Korea have little less stress in their lives.
Click to expand...

Lol. If you think the Korean hypernationalists are mad now...🙃 Waegoreaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!????!!!!!

There would literally be threats against the America embassy and effiges of Ed Beach would be ceremonially burnt. (Only halfway joking here.)

I wouldn't be opposed to swapping out Korea for Siam, though. 😁
 
Seondeok is a culture+science leader.
Sejong, if implemented, could have not been anything than a science+culture leader (creating a new alphabet for his people? That's the epitome of science+culture).
Based upon our resident Korean, Korean people kept asking for Sejong, i.e. they kept asking for a culture+science leader for a civilization that already had a culture+science leaders.
Firaxis implements Sejong as a culture+science leader.
Koreans are upset because Korea got a second culture+science leader... that they asked for.

I mean, from my point of view, Koreans got exactly what they asked for: a new culture+science leader for their civ that already had a culture+science leader.

I mean, I'm French. For the first years, we were "cursed" with a leader that wasn't even from our country and barely spoke French, with an ability that was, at best, "meh", with the second worst unique infrastructure, and a CUA that, while kind of powerful, is also very passive and limited, while still being yet-another-time-shoehorned into "The Culture Civ TM". We had to wait for the Magnificent persona to get an OK-ish leader, but while the rest of the ability staid subpar. Only with Freleanor we got some sort of unique gameplay. It was for a longer time, and France is still a less engaging civ than Korea. And yet, we didn't got a tenth of the rage and uproar we got from Koreans about it.
Or the Dutch? I'm part Dutch too, and Wilhelmina is the contender with Robert the Bruce for "Most Useless Leader". Good: for my heritages, I have the most useless infrastructure and the most useless leader. Wonderful, truly. Thank God that Spain and Hungary are well-designed, in a sense.

It was already exhausting to have our resident Korean to make a comment every other two comments in absolutely every thread about the leader pass, and now he created his own thread to complain how much Firaxis is on a personal vendetta against his entire country? Why, does he think that we didn't heard him the two thousands and thirty previous times? I know we're fanatics, but isn't there a limit? Frankly, sometimes, I went on a thread, quite happy to talk with my fellow fanatics, and I had blood rushing through my ears because, instead of having nice discussions about how leaders waved their arms, I just had three comments, before even getting to anything interesting, from our resident Korean on how Firaxis has just decided to insult voluntarily his nation, his people, his ancestors and his cat. I'm quite frankly tired of this. One person managed to make me come on the forums with a sense of dread, knowing that every thread will be filled to the brim with our resident Korean whining about how Firaxis made their personal mission to spit on the face on Korea. And I fear when the next three leaders will be announced, because I feel that our resident Korean will have the gal to come and comment: "Why did Firaxis made Elizabeth so cool while they butcher my beloved Sejong???"
 
Republic of San Montuoso said:
Seondeok is a culture+science leader.
Sejong, if implemented, could have not been anything than a science+culture leader (creating a new alphabet for his people? That's the epitome of science+culture).
Based upon our resident Korean, Korean people kept asking for Sejong, i.e. they kept asking for a culture+science leader for a civilization that already had a culture+science leaders.
Firaxis implements Sejong as a culture+science leader.
Koreans are upset because Korea got a second culture+science leader... that they asked for.

I mean, from my point of view, Koreans got exactly what they asked for: a new culture+science leader for their civ that already had a culture+science leader.

I mean, I'm French. For the first years, we were "cursed" with a leader that wasn't even from our country and barely spoke French, with an ability that was, at best, "meh", with the second worst unique infrastructure, and a CUA that, while kind of powerful, is also very passive and limited, while still being yet-another-time-shoehorned into "The Culture Civ TM". We had to wait for the Magnificent persona to get an OK-ish leader, but while the rest of the ability staid subpar. Only with Freleanor we got some sort of unique gameplay. It was for a longer time, and France is still a less engaging civ than Korea. And yet, we didn't got a tenth of the rage and uproar we got from Koreans about it.
Or the Dutch? I'm part Dutch too, and Wilhelmina is the contender with Robert the Bruce for "Most Useless Leader". Good: for my heritages, I have the most useless infrastructure and the most useless leader. Wonderful, truly. Thank God that Spain and Hungary are well-designed, in a sense.

It was already exhausting to have our resident Korean to make a comment every other two comments in absolutely every thread about the leader pass, and now he created his own thread to complain how much Firaxis is on a personal vendetta against his entire country? Why, does he think that we didn't heard him the two thousands and thirty previous times? I know we're fanatics, but isn't there a limit? Frankly, sometimes, I went on a thread, quite happy to talk with my fellow fanatics, and I had blood rushing through my ears because, instead of having nice discussions about how leaders waved their arms, I just had three comments, before even getting to anything interesting, from our resident Korean on how Firaxis has just decided to insult voluntarily his nation, his people, his ancestors and his cat. I'm quite frankly tired of this. One person managed to make me come on the forums with a sense of dread, knowing that every thread will be filled to the brim with our resident Korean whining about how Firaxis made their personal mission to spit on the face on Korea. And I fear when the next three leaders will be announced, because I feel that our resident Korean will have the gal to come and comment: "Why did Firaxis made Elizabeth so cool while they butcher my beloved Sejong???"
Click to expand...
I find the Dutch really fun to play, actually. They are not OP but you can create some excellent Industrial zones and polders are fun to build. One of the most beautiful looking civs to look at on the map, if that's a thing.
 
Thormodr said:
I find the Dutch really fun to play, actually. They are not OP but you can create some excellent Industrial zones and polders are fun to build. One of the most beautiful looking civs to look at on the map, if that's a thing.
Click to expand...
Honestly that river adjacency bonus is strong! It does carry the civ, but when you add to that polders being loads of fun, then I have to say I rate the Dutch.
 
King William I said:
But is the Seowon really that good? Sure it's a lot of science without a lot of investment, but unless you really spread your cities out (you know like that massive sprawling empire the Hermit Kingdom had in real life) you're either going to have to build districts next to them, making them less good if not outright worse than a regular campus's adjacency, or build your other districts in less optimal places. A poor design choice considering the entirety of Korea's kit is based on this district, and you're limited in where you can build the dang thing.
Click to expand...
It doesn't scale with late-game development or territory expansion (= all terrain), so nope. Same for dutch and any civilizations depending on specific terrain.

It just makes AI Korea somewhat annoying, forcing me to exterminate them first.
 
Korea is one of those civs in Civ 6 who is powerful and lines up with my playstyle, but I just end up not having fun playing them becasue they're TOO good but also their bonuses are mostly passive and don't require much unique behavior beyond not putting districts next to Seowons. Niether leader abilities are very fun IMO, but I prefer the original.
 
Koreans really shouldn't be complaining about this. All leaders in civ are big deals, on a bigger or smaller scale. Really feeling like this is a personal assault isn't mature, on the other hand, regarding Metanoia, i hadn't seen the old ability referenced the wrong empress. All fine if they changed it before launch though
 
Sejong is kind of tempting in the way to go back to use civilization while civ 7 is on the way.. All civ leaders are tempting it just depends on the user.
 
I was going to create a separate thread about this, but I'll use this thread to vent my concerns. I think the problem with Sejong's mis-design is much deeper than that he's boring to play or that he doesn't really offer an interesting alternative to Seondeok. This isn't even a matter of lack of creativity or the sort of resource constraints you'd expect at this late stage of the game's life cycle. The problem is that the devs don't seem to be guided by a correct set of principles. Sejong's mis-design is an example of Firaxis' blatant disregard for the value of the player's time, which I believe has plagued Civ 6. In order to get the most out of Sejong's ability, right as you're about to unlock a new-era tech, you have to set every city to work Campus Research Grant and focus on science yield. After unlocking the tech, you want to cycle through your cities again, undoing changes from the previous turn. I'm not exaggerating when I say this process takes over a hundred click-like actions with a modest ten-city empire. Having to click the screen a hundred times to implement a simple strategy that anyone can think of isn't what I want in a strategy game, and design decisions like this make me wonder if the devs are interested in creating a game that is fun to play or if they simply want the player to spend as much time as possible playing the game, even if they're not having fun. The devs seem to believe that, because Civ is turn-based and not real-time, the player can afford to spend an infinite amount of time between turns, but this is exactly the opposite of what they should believe. In fact, I'd argue that mindless clicking is much more forgivable in real-time strategy games because clicks are actual resources players have to intelligently budget.

I believe the devs' lack of respect for the player's time is at the root of many of Civ's worst problems. Take the rock band, for example. The rock band emerges at a stage in the game where the player is already having to tend to too many things of little strategic value. Considering the context, the cost, in terms of time and attention required of the player, of creating and operating a rock band is enormous. The player has to:

1. Go to the production menu to purchase a rock band
2. Wait until next turn
3. Name the unit
4. Check what promotions are available
5. Move the unit one tile at a time, so as not to miss the opportunity to promote the unit the same turn
6. Promote the unit

... just to get the rock band moving toward another nation that may be on the other side of the map. If the devs had any respect for the player's time, they would make the following small changes to save the player a few clicks:

- Allow rock bands to move the same turn they're purchased
- Make naming completely optional (= do not show the naming prompt unless asked), just as is the case with military units and cities
- Allow rock bands to move after promoting (Simon Bolivar's ability)

These changes wouldn't solve rock bands or the game at large, but this is another piece of evidence that the importance of the player's time is not amongst the principles that guide Firaxis. Other problems I believe can be attributed to this are:

- Lack of critical UI functions in the game that had to eventually be provided by the modding community (e.g. Quick Deals, Extended Policy Cards)
- Existence of various units that clutter the map (builders, rock bands, religious units, archaeologists, etc.)
- Tedious victory conditions (e.g. science victory, which entails boring repetition of city projects)
 
rocksinmypath said:
In order to get the most out of Sejong's ability,
Click to expand...
What's the correct amount of work to get the most out of an ability? Which Civ has the right amount?

Second, it takes no effort to get value out of Sejong's ability. Playing Korea means you're going to focus on Seowons so you will have a decent amount of science without optimizing.
 
rocksinmypath said:
I was going to create a separate thread about this, but I'll use this thread to vent my concerns. I think the problem with Sejong's mis-design is much deeper than that he's boring to play or that he doesn't really offer an interesting alternative to Seondeok. This isn't even a matter of lack of creativity or the sort of resource constraints you'd expect at this late stage of the game's life cycle. The problem is that the devs don't seem to be guided by a correct set of principles. Sejong's mis-design is an example of Firaxis' blatant disregard for the value of the player's time, which I believe has plagued Civ 6. In order to get the most out of Sejong's ability, right as you're about to unlock a new-era tech, you have to set every city to work Campus Research Grant and focus on science yield. After unlocking the tech, you want to cycle through your cities again, undoing changes from the previous turn. I'm not exaggerating when I say this process takes over a hundred click-like actions with a modest ten-city empire. Having to click the screen a hundred times to implement a simple strategy that anyone can think of isn't what I want in a strategy game, and design decisions like this make me wonder if the devs are interested in creating a game that is fun to play or if they simply want the player to spend as much time as possible playing the game, even if they're not having fun. The devs seem to believe that, because Civ is turn-based and not real-time, the player can afford to spend an infinite amount of time between turns, but this is exactly the opposite of what they should believe. In fact, I'd argue that mindless clicking is much more forgivable in real-time strategy games because clicks are actual resources players have to intelligently budget.

I believe the devs' lack of respect for the player's time is at the root of many of Civ's worst problems. Take the rock band, for example. The rock band emerges at a stage in the game where the player is already having to tend to too many things of little strategic value. Considering the context, the cost, in terms of time and attention required of the player, of creating and operating a rock band is enormous. The player has to:

1. Go to the production menu to purchase a rock band
2. Wait until next turn
3. Name the unit
4. Check what promotions are available
5. Move the unit one tile at a time, so as not to miss the opportunity to promote the unit the same turn
6. Promote the unit

... just to get the rock band moving toward another nation that may be on the other side of the map. If the devs had any respect for the player's time, they would make the following small changes to save the player a few clicks:

- Allow rock bands to move the same turn they're purchased
- Make naming completely optional (= do not show the naming prompt unless asked), just as is the case with military units and cities
- Allow rock bands to move after promoting (Simon Bolivar's ability)

These changes wouldn't solve rock bands or the game at large, but this is another piece of evidence that the importance of the player's time is not amongst the principles that guide Firaxis. Other problems I believe can be attributed to this are:

- Lack of critical UI functions in the game that had to eventually be provided by the modding community (e.g. Quick Deals, Extended Policy Cards)
- Existence of various units that clutter the map (builders, rock bands, religious units, archaeologists, etc.)
- Tedious victory conditions (e.g. science victory, which entails boring repetition of city projects)
Click to expand...

I agree and disagree. I don't necessarily think Sejong is "meant" to be micromanaged, I think he's meant to give you yields based on reaching the point. If you want to do all that micro to get the most out of him, you can. Same with all the other stuff like pre-chopping. If you want to maximize your yields, then yeah, you need to micro it, swap techs around, plan to reach the era at exactly the right time with the exact era score, etc... But you certainly don't have to do that.

Where I agree with you are cases that are just make no sense, like the rock band/apostle promotions stopping their movement. With regular units, that ability does impact them since they heal when they promote, they can gain a promotion in the middle of their turn, etc... But for Apostles, Rock Bands, and Spies, they only get promotions when they are created (or finish an action that always has ended their turn). There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to promote and then immediately put them back in service. So often with my spies, I just forget to promote them, and you have to go cancel their mission, wait until next turn, promote them, wait until their next turn, forget that you swapped out the spy action policy card, wait another turn for your free policy change, swap it back in, start the next mission, etc...

I would disagree on making Rock Bands able to move immediately, at least unless if they also added a cap on buying one per city per turn. If you let them move immediately then you could immediately create a swarm of like 20 Rock Bands from one city all at once, which would be imbalanced. And yeah, forcing you to name Rock Bands and Corps takes times, but worst case it's literally one extra click, and it if the default name occasionally gives me a little laugh, honestly I don't mind, it does add a little spice to the game.

But yeah, the absolute best mods out there are the ones like Quick Deals, Extended Policy Cards, etc... which just make things so much better. I just want to sell off all my niter? It's like 5 clicks with the quick deals mod and I can get the maximum out of it. Extended Policy Cards just gives you the data - honestly the game has enough spots where even knowing the exact values, you still have some very legit decisions. Do I want +6 amenities to cities, or just an essentially flat +15 science? What about +6 science and +6 culture - if I'm lacking culture, I might take that instead of the science. There's no reason for the game to hide any of that, and having it available still gives you decisions.

I think the problem with Sejong is that he really doesn't really change anything in how you play the game, unless if you are really min-maxing. Like compare him to the other leaders in this pack - Ludwig is crazy, quite literally, and Theodora very clearly plays a different game to what you would do with Byzantium before. The biggest advantage of having alt leaders for a civ is to be able to play the same base civ in different ways. I would agree there's not enough gap between the 2 Korean leaders to really alter your style much one way or the other.
 
Pretty sure if you had to summarize what America the country is all about and contributed to world history I doubt it’d be : peace with their neighbors, movie studios and highly productive national parks.
And that’s not even the most egregious example - poor Scotland and Canada would like to have words.

Being offended at a one note, hokey (even when a bit diengenous) take on your culture in this, of all video games, feels a bit silly.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be sad too if I didn’t like the play style of my motherland, but that’s just how the stereotypical cookie crumbles here.
Every society invents stuff, creates art, goes to war, has a religious belief, etc etc. So unless all Civs are going to generically be assigned skill points in all categories with only minor variances to differentiate, we’re going to get something akin to this reality.

Which is all to say, this feels a bit much
 
The_goggles_do_nothing said:
Second, it takes no effort to get value out of Sejong's ability. Playing Korea means you're going to focus on Seowons so you will have a decent amount of science without optimizing.
Click to expand...

UWHabs said:
I don't necessarily think Sejong is "meant" to be micromanaged
Click to expand...

The point is that there's no point of NOT trying to micromanage Sejong to an extreme extent. This is why I said something like this would be more forgiving if Civ was in real time. In an RTS, actions have real costs, and this dynamic alone may be enough to discourage the player to try this maneuver. With the way Civ 6 is, there's practically no cost to this maneuver. If you choose not to do this because you don't find mindlessly clicking the screen a hundred times to be a good way of spending your time, then you're using a factor that is external to the game to justify your in-game decision. I think it's a really bad habit for the developer to encourage the player to do this. The same logic you two are using can be used to not do just about anything in Civ. Why use rock bands if I can win the game without them? It might take me a few more turns, but instead of operating rock bands, I can just Shift + Enter several times, and it might take me less time to win the game. If I don't even want to do that, I can just quit the game without completing it. Why grind Royal Society builders into space projects when I can just Shift + Enter or just quit the game before I get to that stage even? I don't have any issue with players playing the game however they want. I have an issue with the devs seemingly being fine with adding features to the game that are so mind-numbingly tedious and leaving it up to the player to decide how much suffering they want to subject themself to.
 
Villager720 said:
Pretty sure if you had to summarize what America the country is all about and contributed to world history I doubt it’d be : peace with their neighbors, movie studios and highly productive national parks.
And that’s not even the most egregious example - poor Scotland and Canada would like to have words.

Being offended at a one note, hokey (even when a bit diengenous) take on your culture in this, of all video games, feels a bit silly.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d be sad too if I didn’t like the play style of my motherland, but that’s just how the stereotypical cookie crumbles here.
Every society invents stuff, creates art, goes to war, has a religious belief, etc etc. So unless all Civs are going to generically be assigned skill points in all categories with only minor variances to differentiate, we’re going to get something akin to this reality.

Which is all to say, this feels a bit much
Click to expand...

Meh. As a Canadian, I am not offended by the cheesiness that is Canada. Hockey rinks giving culture? Actually farming tundra? Lol. 😂

I just laugh it off. Canada is still very fun to play with great music. ❤

It's just a game, anyway. Some people act like it's life or death, sadly, though. That's what hypernationalism does. 😥
 
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