Fastest Science Victory

[Manpanzee]

Finished up on t198. Unsurprisingly, culture was the big constraint. I picked up Space Procurements on t195, when my fourth Great Writer spawned -- the AI passing Arts Funding kinda saved my bacon, as I might have had to wait past t200 otherwise.

I ended up failing to spawn a Great Engineer in time, but I didn't need it -- I had a strong wonder-building capital with Religious Community, and rush-bought both a Hydro Plant and a Factory. That gave me enough hammers to fit in everything I needed.

My total endgame pop was 108, which is egregiously low for 6 cities (average 18 per city). Doesn't really matter with Korea, though -- just stuff in all the specialist slots, let your cities starve, and somehow you end up with a bazillion science. Other civs need both food AND happiness to grow to this level of science output. Korea needs very little.

I'm feeling pretty good about finally bagging my ol' white whale, and will probably put Civ back on the shelf now. Still enjoying reading other people's strategies, so keep 'em coming.

 

[vadalaz]

Congrats on finally breaking t200! Do you think it's harder on Deity than Prince-Emperor? Many players say you need the Deity gold, caravan science etc for the fastest finish times.

I'm considering if it's worthwhile to buy (~T40) and send a caravan to AI for earlier Theology; haven't done that in a while. You'd get good value if you really beeline it.

Not sure it's worth it, unless you really have nothing else to buy. Say it takes 7 turns to hard-build in the capital, so even if it's a 5 bpt trade route, you only lose 35 beakers. That's like one turn of research by the time you're at Theology.

 

[Manpanzee]

Congrats on finally breaking t200! Do you think it's harder on Deity than Prince-Emperor? Many players say you need the Deity gold, caravan science etc for the fastest finish times.

There are definitely both pluses and minuses to the Deity environment. I do think Deity is "harder" in the sense that there are more elements out of your control. You need a bit of luck on Deity with religion, Leaning Tower, etc. On lower difficulties you have access to whatever you need most in a given game. E.g., you can usually spam out a late Globe Theater if you find yourself short on culture at t180. I think if you have good dirt you can consistently go sub-200 on lower difficulties. On Deity you need good dirt AND a bit of luck.

I've been analyzing my Korea game to figure out if there's anything I could have improved, and I think I actually could have gotten a victory around t192-193 if I had taken a Great Writer from Pisa instead of the standard Great Scientist. Not sure if that's something I should have been able to foresee -- kind of amazing that I'm still seeing new gains from experience at this point.

 

[consentient]

Congratulations Manpanzee! Could you provide your T0 save so I could tool around with Korea? Thanks.

 

[Gustavus Rex]

I really can't get in my head to understand how those super fast science victories is being pulled of... Hats off!

 

[Manpanzee]

Congratulations Manpanzee! Could you provide your T0 save so I could tool around with Korea? Thanks.

Here you go. It's actually far from the most insane start I've ever played, but there's good land to expand to and a lot of ruins you can safely save to ensure a free pantheon.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

As we know land is more important for fast SV than civilization; so the question is: can land be so good to allow sub 200t SV for all civs (maybe except Venice ?

IMO Yes!

We keep playing great plains maps for fast SV (for ease to get great land), but I think everyone agree that great map with possibility to plant 4-5 coastal, mountainous cities (food cargo ships!) would be better.

Yes, it would require endless re-rolls, but actually I got once this kind of pangea map.

I was playing as Korea for HoF record, but unfortunatelly made stupid mistake (lost settler to barbs) and rage quit

So, I decided to try this one more time.

The best map I rolled has four cities - 3 mountainous, 3 coastal and only one near river, so easily could be better

Despite cargo ships amount of pops is not big (haven't found religion - no SiP, no luck with WLTKD in cap), but due to abusing Korea's UA things don't look so bad.

 

[vadalaz]

I won the Maya game on T207. Should've been T203, but I forgot you don't need Lasers for Nanotechnology and put my 6200 beaker overflow into it. :/

I missed LToP to Gandhi on T124 or 125 (on a 4 losing streak now) and I misplayed the endgame. Around T130 I saw Attila was getting crushed, so I quickly built 4 trebuchets, liberated a cultural CS and captured one of Attila's cities, which I sold for 2872 gold and 115 gpt to William. This was T162, so I could've gotten a wave of RAs in there. Instead, I saved the gold and bought 5 labs instantly and 2 more a bit later. I should've known better, missing LToP really hurts and on Deity gold for labs and SS parts is never a problem. This would've been a T197ish game if I played it right, I think.

Anyway, I thought the strategy itself worked well. For the Maya, Piety seems to be a decent alternative to Aristocracy as filler policies when you're playing a Liberty game. I finished Liberty in the end for an engineer to rush Hubble. Getting 5000 faith for 3 GSs was easy even with just one religious CS.

Spoiler :

 

[Blatc]

vadalaz, what turns did you hit Scientific Theory and Plastics?
I just hit Sci Theory T144 in a 6-city Tradition game where I used the T86 great person to GE the NC, but I missed LToP, missed Rationalism as 7th policy by 1 turn (academy pillaged twice), and am behind on caravans. Even though I missed Reliquary, I might be able to accumulate 6,000 faith and culture is good. Goal was sub-T210.

 

[vadalaz]

Sci Theory on turn 145, Plastics as my Rationalism finisher tech on turn 169 with 1 bulb for Radio and 1 bulb for Replaceable parts. Went for the Fertilizer detour before Plastics.

 

[garmeth]

How often do guys get to use the oracle on something useful assuming you're not Poland? Like every time I can build the Oracle I have to build it around turn 65 I feel and I end up wasting the boost.

Should I absolutely just beeline to acoustics if I have a chance to build a late oracle in hopes to hit early secularism?

So, I decided to try this one more time.

The best map I rolled has four cities - 3 mountainous, 3 coastal and only one near river, so easily could be better

Despite cargo ships amount of pops is not big (haven't found religion - no SiP, no luck with WLTKD in cap), but due to abusing Korea's UA things don't look so bad.

Wow that is incredible. How do you have so much faith without founding a religion? That is one of the fastest printing press timings I've seen after astronomy and you're just starting to ramp up with Korea. If you can finish all policies in time you might be able to get like ~190 science victory especially if you can get like 2 scientists from faith. Seoul seems to have good production too. Korea is really hard to get a solid first 100 turns and you seemed to have absolutely nailed that.

 

[Blatc]

Looks like I couldn't knock off vadalaz. Just submitted 6-city Tradition game:
*T100 Education, ~T112 Astronomy, T144 Sci Theory, T172 Plastics (1 GS), T205-206 final tech
*missed Rationalism as 7th policy by 1 turn due to academy pillage
*failed to get LToP (wasn't close)
*lost Worlds Fair by 35 hammers (my fault, didn't fully commit at the start)
*I didn't build Big Ben or Statue of Liberty. I didn't realize until too late I needed more culture; I had several Cultural CS allies and thought that would be enough for 19 policies.
*accumulated >6,000 faith for 1 GE (Hubble) and 3 GS. Built some temples, but not Grand Temple, and missed Reliquary, which is worth >1,000 as Mayans

Great People
T86 GE for 6-city NC
T101 GS (plant)
*musician for CS quest
*Great Artists
*Great Writer (would have been 4th GW used in conjunction with post-WF win golden age, if I'd won)

Starting to re-think value of Commerce policies in SV. In a strong game like this, I didn't build Big Ben and had no issue getting enough gold late game. I didn't get to Mercantilism and believe putting the 7th policy in Patronage would have been better than opening Commerce. With lots of late game gold, there's not much point getting Mercantilism unless you get it before Labs. Actively avoiding 'extra' early game culture, you can target Rationalism for 7th policy and get the 4 key Rationalism policies faster.

Such a shame to have such a strong map and not break T210, with T200 also a realistic possibility. 6 cities was challenging to manage, but I see a lot of value in going that wide.

 

[vadalaz]

Mercantilism gives pretty good science in a wide game, especially if you have some mints. You get 3-4 raw beakers from it per city, so it's like working 3-4 extra trading posts or having 1-2 extra pop. Since it counts towards bulbs, it can shave a couple of turns off your finish time.

Do you think it's possible to generate 7500 faith before t200 for 3GS + 2GE? I did it as Spain once, but that was on Prince with 2 faith mountains.

 

[Blatc]

Mercantilism gives pretty good science in a wide game, especially if you have some mints. You get 3-4 raw beakers from it per city, so it's like working 3-4 extra trading posts or having 1-2 extra pop. Since it counts towards bulbs, it can shave a couple of turns off your finish time.

Do you think it's possible to generate 7500 faith before t200 for 3GS + 2GE? I did it as Spain once, but that was on Prince with 2 faith mountains.

It would be interesting to compare science from Mercantilism and Scholasticism. Either way, there is extra effort/resources used to get a 3rd policy in commerce of patronage (unless Poland).

The fastest way to get 4 in Rationalism, without sacrificing Tradition/growth, is to get them as your 7th-10th policies.

I just generated ~5800 faith by T200 without Reliquary (would have selected if available, and it often is), without building all Temples, and without putting much gold into Religious CS (possibly none at all, but I forget). I wanted to hit 6000 for a sub-T210 victory and was on track for that, so not building more temples or allying religious cs was a conscious decision. On this particular map, 7500 faith by T200 was possible, with some luck (Reliquary). Should mention, 2nd follower belief was happiness from Gardens, so room to get a little more faith there from +2 faith from wonders, and I planted 2 prophets after spreading and getting mosques.

Edit: hit 5800 stated above with 0 faith mountains. Sri Pada was nearby, but as much as I like it, would have hurt what was already my weakest city location.

 

[vadalaz]

I think you're right, 7500 faith should be doable with Reliquary. I think it's safe to assume that in every Maya game by T200 you can get:

14 Great Scientists (7 natural, 3 faith, 2 Hubble, 1 PT, 1 UA)
1 Great Engineer (UA)
4 Great Writers (3 natural, 1 UA)
4 Great Artists (3 natural, 1 UA)
1 Great Prophet (500 faith)
2 filler GPs from UA

That's 26 GPs = 1300 faith, or 1500 faith with 3 Great Musicians and the 6k faith Engineer. So the requirement goes down from 7500 to 6000 which is a very realistic goal. My next Maya game is definitely going to feature full Tradition, 3 GS + 2 GE is so strong.

 

[Blatc]

Keep in mind, you can't count 50 faith from the final faith-bought great scientist that you haven't bought yet. But, you could count 100 faith from 2 faith GEs (Statue of Liberty and Hubble, I assume?), so your numbers don't change.

In games where you have a realistic chance of hitting 7500 faith, it's very likely that you hit the 800 faith prophet as well. I suppose if you're lucky and can get both Pagodas and Mosques then go for it, but probably more likely you get 1 of those 2 (or neither) and a +happiness policy when you enhance. Either way, I'm almost exclusively using Desert Folklore at this point, even in a recent botched attempt with early Uluru and 0 desert tiles being worked at the time, as it's easy for the long-term impact of DF to surpass 4 or even 8 from OWN.

As my capital is always pressed to produce enough, I'm wondering about dropping a few builds and am curious others thoughts on the impact of skipping:
*National Epic with all guilds in capital
*National Epic with Writers guild in capital, but artists and musicians guild elsewhere
*Ironworks if you cannot start until, say T150 and are aiming to finish in <50 turns; assume build takes 5+ turns
*Oracle. Not that I'm skipping it, I'm just not in a position to challenge for it when going to 5-6 cities Tradition. Even with a really strong 1st expo, I would be tempted to build a settler or two there and get started on caravans earlier, as I've done very poorly getting caravans out lately.
*other thoughts?

 

[IronfighterXXX]

How often do guys get to use the oracle on something useful assuming you're not Poland? Like every time I can build the Oracle I have to build it around turn 65 I feel and I end up wasting the boost.

Should I absolutely just beeline to acoustics if I have a chance to build a late oracle in hopes to hit early secularism?

On deity waiting for secularism is very risky strategy (esp. if playing in HoF rules), but Oracle is good wonder anyway - early GS point, culture and really 'free' policy (usually I spend it on more influence with gold gifts for CSs).

Wow that is incredible. How do you have so much faith without founding a religion? That is one of the fastest printing press timings I've seen after astronomy and you're just starting to ramp up with Korea.

I built HS and planted GP; later I captured one GP from Indonesia after I DoW for WLTKD and planted him too

In game everything looks good besides fact that I lost LToP by two turns (126T) and I've never had good game without it, but maybe this time

 

[vadalaz]

As my capital is always pressed to produce enough, I'm wondering about dropping a few builds and am curious others thoughts on the impact of skipping:

National Epic: the only times I build it is close to the endgame, when I see I need to hurry up a Great Person in some city, e.g. the last natural GS in some expo or a GW for the World's Fair. I hardly ever find the production for it earlier.
Ironworks: again, it's usually hard for me to find the production for it in a 6+ city empire, especially in an Education - Astronomy - Printing Press game. Metal Casting before Edu/Astro makes it a bit easier.
Oracle: not top priority, but I do try to build it in almost every game

 

[Blatc]

I built HS and planted GP; later I captured one GP from Indonesia after I DoW for WLTKD and planted him too

In game everything looks good besides fact that I lost LToP by two turns (126T) and I've never had good game without it, but maybe this time

We all seem to be missing LToP lately. I'm considering replacing Brazil in my great plains games because they keep being competent without jungle and consistently beat me to it.

What is DoW for WLTKD? Do you start a trade like 28gpt for luxury, wait 1 turn, then declare just to save the gold? If so, how late into the game do you do this?

Speaking of WLTKD, one advantage to Great Plains over GP Plus map I discovered in T212 game: with less luxury variety, you can have every luxury in your trade network and, therefore, have endless WLTKD in every city late-game. Obvious trade off: there is less luxury variety.

 

[garmeth]

I find it hilarious how often the AI can build LToP even if you reach printing press before them. Pedro is a monster on great plains when it comes to printing press wonders. It is probably much better to have Washington or Morocco instead of Brazil. They both are pretty peaceful with very low wonder competitiveness and wonder affinities IIRC.