Fastest Science Victory

[DanQuayle]

I have seen Pedro use a GE on LToP at the very least twice in my games.

 

[Manpanzee]

Well, I was going to take a break from Civ, but some of the posts in this thread gave me an idea I just had to test out. I think I've actually made a real theoretical breakthrough here, which is exciting.

I've done some experimenting with hybrid Liberty strategies, where the finisher is saved for the endgame, and it's never quite felt right. The issue is that the right side of Liberty is really hard to pass up. Meritocracy is the only happiness policy in the tree, and I don't think you can go without it. Representation is also a big difference maker once you're talking about 6+ cities -- it means faster Rationalism and something close to 2 extra policies over the course of the game. Choosing which of these policies to forego always seemed like a dilemma without a right answer, and it made the overall strategy seem fundamentally flawed.

However, there's one more option that's often forgotten, and that's the one I chose for this game: take all of Liberty EXCEPT Collective Rule!

This allows you to pick up both of the crucial right-side Liberty policies, at the cost of a slower start. However, I find it's quite easy to get enough cash to purchase two Settlers if you're diligent about pillaging the AI. Could that be enough to go to 6+ cities without Collective Rule? Apparently, the answer is yes.

I chose Egypt, banking on Burial Tombs being awesome and the UA giving me enough hammers to hard-build a wide NC in reasonable time. My starting policy path was Liberty opener --> Republic -->Piety opener --> Organized Religion --> right-side Liberty.The main theoretical benefit of this approach is great person maximization -- it's easy to generate enough faith for 3 Great Scientists, and the Liberty finisher tacks on one more for the endgame without any counter-bumping issues.

Key timings & details: finished 7-city NC on t89. Education at t101. Scientific Theory at ~t142 (one bulb). Plastics at ~167 (two bulbs, with Fertilizer detour). Finished LToP at ~t142 (all AIs were warring heavily, also I'm extremely lucky). Tithe/Mosques/Feed the World/Reliquary religion (almost ideal for this build, just need Pagodas instead of Mosques). Thebes was my lowest hammer city (!) for a lot of the game, and most of the key wonder building happened in Elephantine, Memphis, and Alexandria.

I finished both technology and culture at t195, so sub-200 was absolutely doable here. Unfortunately, I had gold trouble and had to wait it out. Askia was sitting there with 10,000+ gold but wouldn't be my friend. Painfully close to a glorious sub-200 with a bizarro strategy, but I'm satisfied that the approach is sound in practice.

 

[vadalaz]

Nicely done, and very creative thinking with skipping Collective Rule there. I skipped Meritocracy in my Mayan game, which was a bit painful with 7 cities, but still manageable since my cities didn't have much food anyway. I suspect skipping Collective Rule is a very strong play as Spain too, as long as you find at least one NW first. Do you also skip Engineering and go straight for Education now? Your cities don't seem to have aqueducts, nor did they in your Korea ~T100 screenshot.

Such a shame about the gold issues. Would a Great Merchant from Liberty shave off a couple of turns maybe? Or a DoW on Askia for a peace deal?

 

[Manpanzee]

Nicely done, and very creative thinking with skipping Collective Rule there. I skipped Meritocracy in my Mayan game, which was a bit painful with 7 cities, but still manageable since my cities didn't have much food anyway. I suspect skipping Collective Rule is a very strong play as Spain too, as long as you find at least one NW first. Do you also skip Engineering and go straight for Education now? Your cities don't seem to have aqueducts, nor did they in your Korea ~T100 screenshot.

Such a shame about the gold issues. Would a Great Merchant from Liberty shave off a couple of turns maybe? Or a DoW on Askia for a peace deal?

Askia was an absolute monster in this game. He wiped Brazil early, then took a city from India, then went 1-on-4 against every other remaining AI, and came out unscathed. I'd say Askia was at war with an average of 2 AIs at any given time in the game (This is why I was able to get LToP so late). He was scary and I never even considered DOW'ing him -- I doubt my 6 Foreign Legions would have been enough on their own.

I was able to save the Liberty finisher for the very end, and thought about grabbing a Merchant, but I actually needed the Scientist. I think the Merchant would have meant a win on the same turn, just with more leftover gold and less leftover science.

I do generally go straight for Education nowadays. As I've gotten better at city management, I've found it easier to consistently make small cities that can handle early Education -- I don't have the problems with long-term development that used to make Engineering/Metal Casting detours attractive. If you're willing to stagnate for a bit while things get set up, even a 7-pop city can work 2 Scientists and still have enough hammers to get Aqueducts/Workshops out in reasonable time.

I agree that this strategy makes a ton of sense for Spain. Also promising with Maya, Poland, and a few others.

 

[garmeth]

Askia was an absolute monster in this game. He wiped Brazil early, then took a city from India, then went 1-on-4 against every other remaining AI, and came out unscathed. I'd say Askia was at war with an average of 2 AIs at any given time in the game (This is why I was able to get LToP so late). He was scary and I never even considered DOW'ing him -- I doubt my 6 Foreign Legions would have been enough on their own.

I was able to save the Liberty finisher for the very end, and thought about grabbing a Merchant, but I actually needed the Scientist. I think the Merchant would have meant a win on the same turn, just with more leftover gold and less leftover science.

I do generally go straight for Education nowadays. As I've gotten better at city management, I've found it easier to consistently make small cities that can handle early Education -- I don't have the problems with long-term development that used to make Engineering/Metal Casting detours attractive. If you're willing to stagnate for a bit while things get set up, even a 7-pop city can work 2 Scientists and still have enough hammers to get Aqueducts/Workshops out in reasonable time.

I agree that this strategy makes a ton of sense for Spain. Also promising with Maya, Poland, and a few others.

Wow, you will actually work universities with a 7 pop city? Do you need to send food caravans to those cities or what?

 

[BlackWizard]

Wow, you will actually work universities with a 7 pop city? Do you need to send food caravans to those cities or what?

He has feed the world in religion so thats 2 extra food per city. I assume he also build burial tombs because piety + egypt. He also seems to be allied at least one maritime CS

 

[Manpanzee]

Wow, you will actually work universities with a 7 pop city? Do you need to send food caravans to those cities or what?

A 7-pop city needs 12 food to support itself. Granary and Water Mill provide 2 each. If you have Feed the World like I did, that's 2 more. Maritime CS may provide even more on top of that.

So, let's say you have a total of 6 food coming in from non-tile sources. That means you only need 6 food from tiles to stagnate. You'll have Civil Service by this point, so you can likely get the full 6 food from 2 riverside farms. Take those and the scientists, and you still have 3 more pop to work with. Could be mines if you don't care about growth right now, could be pastures, could be more farms. Easy to be self-supporting. Often I will work mines until Aqueducts are up, then switch to food -- if you're stagnating with 3 mines going, your city probably has 15+ hammers, which is plenty to get your buildings out.

I also usually support the weakest cities with food Caravans. I don't think you can go too wrong by just going into Economic Overview, sorting by food surplus, and sending your Caravans to whatever has the lowest number. There are some other factors though -- wonder-building cities want to get extra-extra strong, so I might send them more Caravans than they really need. Observatory vs non-Observatory also matters, as does Aqueduct vs non-Aqueduct, as does the quality of available tiles you're growing into.

 

[unrendered]

decided to try a shoshone tradition CB conquering SV for the first time but i think i kinda f***ed up somewhere.

my BO in cap was: x3 pathfinder -> x2 archer -> x2 settler (bought one also) -> x4 archer -> caravan -> granary -> library.

BO in expands was granary -> library.

i timed the archer spam with construction then upgraded them all to CBs (and got two free warriors from CS) and got two cities from brazil but at this time it was already around t80 and neither of the cities had a library (not even in the cap WTH) so i quit because NC would have been hella slow. so those who successfully do CB conquering SVs what should i do different to still get t80-90 NC with 6-10 cities?

 

[DanQuayle]

You don't need libraries in puppets to build the NC, but the number of cities you have increases the NC hammer cost by 30 (I think). Some buildings also randomly get destroyed when you capture cities. You were probably unlucky in your game and lost the libraries. Anyway, annex your conquered cities only after you have built the NC (or any early national wonder you want that are missing buildings in puppets).

 

[vadalaz]

I think you just need to attack very early with an archers + upgraded pathfinders army and then hope you don't get unlucky. I tried this two times and the first time I ran into T35-40 endless CBs and a T45 Terracota from Pedro. The second attempt worked though:

Spoiler :

I took 2 cities by T51, then continued the conquest and captured Marrakech (sold for something like 300 gold + 30 gpt) and Venice. On T118 things were looking pretty good:

Spoiler :

But then a couple of turns later Hiawatha grabs HS and LToP, I realize my faith output sucks and I only have 2 mountain cities, so I ragequit.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

I think that I kinda proved my point - good Pangea map is at least competitive if not better than Great Plains map
(if I had one more mountain or LtoP the current HoF records would be in serious danger )

 

[hiawafer]

Wow this thread has crazy ressults. IronFighter that is god level. Will you share the starting save game file?

 

[IronfighterXXX]

IronFighter that is god level. Will you share the starting save game file?

Thanks! Save for you:

 

[vadalaz]

Very nice game Ironfighter, this has to be the highest bpt I've seen on 4 cities before turn 200. And your map doesn't even seem to be very good, few tiles to work in the capital, few coastal resources, no jungle tiles etc. Did you go 4-city NC or 2-city? I know you chose 2-city in your Austria challenge and the Babylon t199 game, do you think that gives you a faster start?

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Very nice game Ironfighter, this has to be the highest bpt I've seen on 4 cities before turn 200. And your map doesn't even seem to be very good, few tiles to work in the capital, few coastal resources, no jungle tiles etc. Did you go 4-city NC or 2-city? I know you chose 2-city in your Austria challenge and the Babylon t199 game, do you think that gives you a faster start?

This time I went 3-city NC on 67T + immediately planted fourth (earlier bought settler) and yes main reason is to get faster start compared to 4-city NC.

Map wasn't best, but good enough
Due to abusing Korea's UA I haven't even noticed lack of tiles to work in cap (Seul with four pastures and three mining resources had good production and food was delivered by two cargo ships)

 

[Iamteehee]

How long did it take you to roll that map? Whenever I try to roll a good Pangaea map, even after like 40 rolls, I can't find a good one.

 

[Blatc]

I think this also adds weight to the 4-city vs. 5+ city argument. I've been trying to increase # of cities, thinking that is key to sub-T200, while you're showing that earlier NC and moving forward with smaller empire may be optimal, at least for Korea.

I suppose that opens the door for a 3-city NC with 2-3 additional cities post-NC attempt, both with Austria and others.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

How long did it take you to roll that map? Whenever I try to roll a good Pangaea map, even after like 40 rolls, I can't find a good one.

This time I was really lucky and only need ~15 rolls, but keep in mind that Korea's start bias (coast) is very helpful on pangea map.

I think this also adds weight to the 4-city vs. 5+ city argument. I've been trying to increase # of cities, thinking that is key to sub-T200, while you're showing that earlier NC and moving forward with smaller empire may be optimal, at least for Korea.

We have two ways - either bet on fast beginning (less cities - earlier NC, education, etc) or strong finish (more cities - more powerfull bulbs, possible more GSs) - both are valid as show our results.

 

[hiawafer]

I got a national colege at turn 80 w. 4 cities on your map, Ironfighter. Good things is no attacks to defend, 2 cargo boats, lots of ruins, easy to steal workers from neighbours, lotsd of camps to clear for city quests, and lots of cultured cities.

What were the times you reached the other key points like Education, Astronomy, Scientific Theory and Plastics?

 

[IronfighterXXX]

What were the times you reached the other key points like Education, Astronomy, Scientific Theory and Plastics?

I don't remember exactly, but approx:

90-95T -edu,
~107T - astronomy,
130-135T ST,
~163T plastic,

All without any bulbs (but planted first GS).