Fastest Science Victory

[vadalaz]

Nice, thank you! I've been doing most of these things, except I never give AI freebies and I don't pay much attention to the World Congress. But it makes perfect sense to vote for your friend to be the host when you reach Modern and then vote for his proposals, since it doesn't really change much and gives you free diplo boosts.

 

[T-hawk]

Here are two games in which the ST -> Victory jump is made in 39 and 40 turns... I'm not sure how this player does it, in my best games it takes me 50-60 turns to do the same. He goes Indu first and picks Order every time, maybe that's the answer? I also just noticed he has a new write-up for a T185 Babylon game where he goes from Plastics to victory in just 20 turns (!) with Order.

Hi, that's my site, just happened to come over here and see this thread. Someone was asking if those are HOF eligible. The answer is yes in general terms, it all follows the rules for game setup and that I don't reload to change anything major like combat or ruins or anything, but sometimes I will reload to fix a minor misclick or mistake or experiment with something.

Best guess for how I'm doing the endgame faster is more Great Scientists. Are you getting all of the following? : 8 normal city production (up through the 900 GPP slot after the Leaning Tower consumes one), Leaning Tower, Porcelain Tower, 2 from Hubble, 2 or 3 from faith purchases, one from Spaceflight Pioneers. I carefully time it to produce the last normal one sometime in the 170s, then finish Porcelain and Hubble right after that. And the Babylon game had two more than that, 10 from normal city production.

Every Great Scientist matters. There's no such thing as a surplus one. Every one cuts more time off the finish date than anything else you can do. If you're going to have a surplus one, then you need to make it not surplus by bulbing another scientist earlier instead (to reach Rocketry, to reach Plastics, sometimes even to reach Sci Theory.) Go Humanism before Secularism. For the 12 turns that elapse between getting one of those to getting both, the GPP matters, the beakers don't.

Industrialization or Scientific Theory, either can come first. Sometimes I'll go for factories for Order first to get Skyscrapers and Big Ben and buy most or all of the public schools; sometimes I'll go directly to ST and build them.

 

[Iamteehee]

I'm not quite seeing why you are going order here. I feel like every one of your fast science games would have been faster if you didn't have to spend 10 turns making SS parts. You get slightly worse science from not having worker's faculties (might not actually be true, 8+ food per turn is a lot) but the extra great scientist from order usually doesn't matter. For example, in the babylon t185 game, you faith bought 2gs 2 ge instead of 3gs.

 

[T-hawk]

Order is for both Workers' Faculties and Skyscrapers. I'm not sure if either alone outweighs Freedom, but the combination of both does.

Are you buying or building the research labs? I always buy them, usually instantly at getting the tech and with max possible discount from Mercantilism + Big Ben + Skyscrapers.

The food and happy from the Freedom specialist policies doesn't matter, because I never grow the cities after research labs. I park them all on zero growth (even -2 to -4 food shortage to burn whatever's leftover in the food box) and run max specialists for Secularism. In a long enough time frame, Freedom's food would beat Workers' Faculties, but the time frame before winning isn't long enough.

The extra great scientist from Order does matter. If you know that one is coming at the end, that means you can spend one sooner instead, and 8 turns sooner to Plastics does matter and is better than anything Freedom can do for that.

I don't spend 10 turns building SS parts, or rather those 10 turns don't determine the end date (assuming I do it correctly, which admittedly doesn't always happen.) If I can complete Apollo 10 turns before the end, then it's fine to just build the other 5 parts and rush only the last one by an engineer.

 

[Iamteehee]

I buy labs.

I'm saying that the extra great scientist doesn't matter, not because an extra great scientist is worthless, which is clearly not the case, but because you usually won't get an extra GS from it. You bought 2 GE where you could have bought another GS in the babylon game. You also have to consider that you can just work science in non-Hubble/Apollo cities as freedom.

You seem to mention that Apollo, not science, is the limiting factor, in your Babylon and Shoshone game. On the shoshone game, you seem to have finished apollo 9-10 turns before victory. Freedom cuts it down to about 2-3.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Hi, that's my site

Do you have saves for the games you posted?

 

[vadalaz]

Go Humanism before Secularism. For the 12 turns that elapse between getting one of those to getting both, the GPP matters, the beakers don't.

This is one thing I don't agree with, because Secularism beakers let you get access to extra specialist slots from schools and labs a bit quicker, and base GPP > GPP modifiers, especially as Babylon.

Assuming 7 expos with university slots filled and no observatories, and capital with university + Writers' and Artists' guilds + NC, with 12 turns of Secularism you'd get 12 * (7*2*2*1.33 + 11*2*1.83) = 930 beakers. That's about 2-3 turns of research in late Renaissance, so in theory you get to public schools and ideologies at least 2 turns faster than you would with Humanism - that's 2 turns of working an extra science specialist. The secularism player is now ahead in science and I think it's fair to assume he reaches Plastics at least 1 turn earlier as well, which is another extra specialist-turn over the Humanism player.

In total you get 3 extra specialist-turns. First two turns get modified by LToP, Humanism and Garden, third one also gets the ideology bonus, so in the end you get 16.5 extra GS points, or 21 as Babylon. You could also potentially build National Epic in the city which gets the final natural GS for another +25%. 12 turns of Humanism with universities wins you 18 GS points (21 in the Oracle city), so at best you get 4.5 GS points over the Secularism player as a non-Babylon civ.

And even if you didn't get any GS points "back" from Secularism, 18-21 GS points is just one turn of late-game GPP. I don't think I've ever had a game where getting my final GS one turn earlier would've mattered - but I suppose that's because I've never played an actually optimal SV.

 

[fimbul]

Well i dropped down to play on prince to test out what t hawk's website says (im not sure how you would do what he does on deity and live...) but man does that guy has endgame stuff planed out well.

Slow start since i never play on prince (poland GP -4NC on T85, 2 more afterwards, edu T110 ), but the endgame goes so fast. Plastics T184 (1x bulb) and then victory on T203. Messed up the GS production so my last city never spawned a GS - turns out building GL and oracle in the cap means it can produce too many GS points....

btw what does everyone do for GC and happiness on prince? the AI is always overrun by barbs and poorer than a church mouse.

 

[T-hawk]

I'm saying that the extra great scientist doesn't matter, not because an extra great scientist is worthless, which is clearly not the case, but because you usually won't get an extra GS from it. You bought 2 GE where you could have bought another GS in the babylon game. You also have to consider that you can just work science in non-Hubble/Apollo cities as freedom.

You seem to mention that Apollo, not science, is the limiting factor, in your Babylon and Shoshone game. On the shoshone game, you seem to have finished apollo 9-10 turns before victory. Freedom cuts it down to about 2-3.

All this is because I didn't execute optimally in that particular game. Apollo shouldn't be the limiting factor if it's done right, I just didn't that time. I want to plan to bulb to Rocketry early enough that I can still make use of every obtainable scientist thereafter, and to start building all but the last SS part early enough that they don't impact the finish date (that they finish at the same time as the last engineer-rushed part.) If that's all done perfectly, I think the Order approach comes in faster than Freedom can, thanks to the beakers from Workers' Faculties for which there isn't anything comparable in Freedom.

 

[T-hawk]

Do you have saves for the games you posted?

Yeah. Do you want anything in particular? Starting, ending, intermediate saves, for any of the particular games? I usually keep a save at every social policy.

This is one thing I don't agree with, because Secularism beakers let you get access to extra specialist slots from schools and labs a bit quicker, and base GPP > GPP modifiers, especially as Babylon.

You might be right on this. I was thinking of those beakers in an endgame context, which doesn't matter, but yes reaching schools/labs sooner might. I'll try it at some point.

I don't think I've ever had a game where getting my final GS one turn earlier would've mattered

I have. Something's got to be the limiting factor and sometimes it is indeed that scientist. Probably more commonly than any other single factor.

Well i dropped down to play on prince to test out what t hawk's website says (im not sure how you would do what he does on deity and live...) but man does that guy has endgame stuff planed out well.

btw what does everyone do for GC and happiness on prince?

I'm playing on Emperor, yeah I'm making no claims about anything working on Deity. Happiness comes from Pagodas by way of Desert Folklore producing the faith. It's still tight and sometimes you have to avoid growth a little bit.

 

[Iamteehee]

Yeah. Do you want anything in particular? Starting, ending, intermediate saves, for any of the particular games? I usually keep a save at every social policy.

How about an ideology save? (or maybe sometime before industrial so I can test out ST vs. Industrialization)

 

[Pysethus]

Very nice site, T-hawk. I feel like trying similar science speedruns now. I've had my fair share of deity occ lately.

What settings do you use? Are AI civilizations random or hand-picked?

I wonder if liberty OCC type of start would be decent. The idea would be to build pyramids and library before settlers. When finally pumping settlers out, you could get them at 2 turns / settler. Squeezing something like NC or ToA before settlers might even work as well. OCC start would also have the benefit of getting pop runes for the capital longer. I'm mainly thinking this strategy for shoshone because of their natural synergies (pop runes for OCC, great expanse for addressing slow border growth of liberty).

 

[T-hawk]

How about an ideology save? (or maybe sometime before industrial so I can test out ST vs. Industrialization)

Here's everything I have for the Shoshone, Spain, and Babylon games. Take your pick: http://dos486.com/civ5/saves/

What settings do you use? Are AI civilizations random or hand-picked?

Inland Sea, hot, young world age (more hills), Emperor difficulty. I had been leaving the AI civs random but started handpicking them after the Babylon game.

I wonder if liberty OCC type of start would be decent. The idea would be to build pyramids and library before settlers. When finally pumping settlers out, you could get them at 2 turns / settler. Squeezing something like NC or ToA before settlers might even work as well. OCC start would also have the benefit of getting pop runes for the capital longer. I'm mainly thinking this strategy for shoshone because of their natural synergies (pop runes for OCC, great expanse for addressing slow border growth of liberty).

I'm currently working on a Liberty game, although not OCC-style (did get Pyramids later) and not Shoshone.

 

[Manpanzee]

Thanks for the save, Manpanzee. I'm seeing what results I can get with my favourite playstyle: violent culture. I had a pretty good start considering I'm a bit out of practice. I doubt I can get anywhere near the dazzling results you guys have gotten, but would be more than satisfied just with sub-T200 CV. One question though: is this map 'legal'? i.e. you have submitted it to HoF?

Yes, this is a legit map. Should be going up in the next HoF update.

Go Humanism before Secularism. For the 12 turns that elapse between getting one of those to getting both, the GPP matters, the beakers don't.

Hmm, that's interesting. I've actually been wondering about this myself -- I believe Mesix does this too, and he has the t180 Babylon/Prince game that's the fastest "normal" SV in the HoF. Could be something there, although Vadalaz's analysis seems pretty compelling to me.

 

[fimbul]

You bring up a good point manpanzee about the t180 babylon SV game. Its utterly baffling to me when i open it up - the T120 save does have humanism before secularism, and somehow with 5 scientists settled he still has enough GS to win at T180. It doesnt stop there, he has enough hammers to make wonders and culture buildings in every city...

Id really like to know how he gets all his GC in the early game - if you compare the T60 save to the log, Nippur is founded on T54 - somehow on T60 its building walls and has mon/gan/lib/watermill. But in the save i cant find any trace of him getting GC in deals from AI, theres no sign of tributing CS (none that i can see have the "gave tribute recently" tag), he doesnt DOW the AI so he cant be pillaging caravans/getting peacedeal GC. After walking through another painful early game on prince i really want to know the secret to his economy

 

[yung.carl.jung]

he is building walls.. on prince difficulty? something seems very off.

also, isn't planting 5 scientists pretty worthless? hasn't acken shown that one should never plant more than two, in some cases not more than one?

 

[consentient]

if you compare the T60 save to the log, Nippur is founded on T54 - somehow on T60 its building walls and has mon/gan/lib/watermill.

Sounds sketchy

 

[Iamteehee]

T176 SV on vadalaz's map

Went 7 city tradition with delayed NC.
I bought a scout, 4 settlers and 2 shrines early. Religion was OwN, tithe, pagodas, religious community, reliquary
t21 pantheon
t30 religion
t43 enhance
t48 settled last city
t83 NC, t84 education without great library, took detour to engineering but not metal casting (it seems if you meet netherlands early, he builds up an army and dows you, if you don't he gets GL around t30, I think the best course of action is to meet him early and pay morocco/huns to DoW him)
t95 entered renaissance through astronomy, oracled rationalism opener
t104 secularism
t109 world congress, proposed WF
t125 ST
t135 freedom (I oxforded radio, but I should have bulbed and saved oxford for lategame)
t148 plastics, 1 bulb, 2 (worthless) RAs, bought 5/7 labs initially, got last 2 in the next 4 turns
t176 victory

I naturally generated 9 GS, 4 from LToP/PT/Hubble, faithbought 2 GS 1 GE (had 800 faith when I finished, I probably could have got 3 GS)
Social Policy order was: open tradition, oligarchy, legalism, landed elite, monarchy, aristocracy, open commerce, rationalism, secularism, humanism, avant garde, civil society, free thought, mercenary army, mercantilism, sovereignty, universal suffrage, capitalism, volunteer army, space procurements, scientific revolution

I built: Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, Hanging Gardens, Oracle, Borobudur, Angkor Wat, Leaning Tower of Pisa, Globe Theatre, Big Ben, Statue of Liberty, Hubble, Porcelain Tower (I saved it until the end)
I probably could have built Petra and Chichen Itza

With all the mistakes I made considered, I think sub-t170 is possible on this map.
Attached are images of NC turn (83) and victory (176)

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Very impressive, I think this is easily one of (if not the) best tries I've seen for a SV. Wide Tradition is a really cool play style and I am glad you got to show off what it is capable of!

 

[phryxolydian]

Crazy finish time, Iamteehee - congrats! You only do SVs but you've gotten damn good at them.

May I just ask, and I know this is a noob question but... Why do people starve their cities at the end? I assume it's for the production -> research + factories (if Order) but, how exactly does it work and when do you do it? Once you're close to the end and your city won't grow in the next ~15 turns?