Fastest Science Victory

[vadalaz]

Do you accumulate enough faith to buy 5-7 universities at Education with Jesuit? Also I don't know if you do this already, but you could give the +100 gold founder belief a try to get tons of pre-Education gold. If you convert all 16 CSs, at least 7 AI cities and 5-7 of your own, you get 2800-3000 gold from religion in total. Probably a bit less than Tithe in the end, but you get the full benefit earlier.

What ruin rewards do you pick as the Shoshone? Settler, worker are obvious picks but what about the third ruin in the cycle (before turn 20)?

 

[Blatc]

No, in multiple attempts I didn't accumulate enough faith to buy 5+ Universities - probably 2 at most immediately faith-bought, then waiting on others - and I'm not sure how I could by T75-80. In a sense, the choice of putting 4 policies into Jesuit (usually with Liberty, as a Tradition/Piety combo means delaying finishing Tradition) comes at the trade-off of both finishing Tradition (faith-bought GEs) and reaching Mercantilism.

I've been going with Tithe and planting prophets, most likely exceeding 3000 gold without actively spread beyond my own cities, and then hitting some big late-game faith #s. I'm considering spreading a moderate amount in future attempts, primarily to maintain CS relations longer with key CS (which could both earn and save gold).

My 3rd ruin pick has varied. In Liberty attempts, I went Culture (probably twice). In Tradition attempts, aiming for full Tradition and 2-3 in Commerce before Rationalism, I find I don't want any culture ruins, as I may reach the 7th policy choice before Medieval, so I'm picking Population, unit upgrade, or gold depending on the situation (i.e if I haven't yet planted 2nd city and capital just grew to 2 pop, then immediately jumping to 3 pop has good value).

 

[vadalaz]

I got a T148 victory on Highlands with a 6-city Tradition-Mercantilism build. To me this feels like the most powerful mix on Settler, turn 50-something Tradition finisher is too good. Highlands corner start seems incredibly powerful as well, you get a lot of ruins near your starting location and you can actually park one of the pathfinders next to them, then wait for the Settler/Worker options to appear. There's no risk of AIs taking those ruins because their warriors are too far away - Highlands is a big map.

I took the +100 gold founder belief and I'm pretty confident it was a better pick than Tithe. I had 34 or so cities following my religion in the end, and most of them were converted pre-Plastics. I don't think Tithe brings you 3000 gold by turn 120-125, and post-Plastics gold doesn't seem to matter if you have Big Ben and Mercantilism. It's always something other than gold that's the limiting factor, for me at least.

Unfortunately I didn't manage my faith very well. In the end I didn't have enough to buy the third GS, which slowed me down by 3 or 4 turns. I wasn't really planning on buying 3 GSs in the first place, as I figured I wasn't getting enough faith from terrain for that (the only city with a good amount of desert was the capital), but it was a mistake to buy a GE for Statue of Liberty. I could've hard-built that and it wouldn't cost me much.

 

[Blatc]

Well done vadalaz and thanks for mentioning parking pathfinders next to nearby ruins, I hadn't been doing that. How many pathfinders did you go with? Also, how many of each science building were you able to purchase? I'll definitely be trying a game with +100 gold founder belief now!

 

[vadalaz]

I built 5 pathfinders. Also built a spearman and an archer a bit later to clear nearby barb camps... At some point I started radaring the area near my military units to guide them to barb camps and collect the 50 gold rewards for clearing those. Those really add up over time.

My early goal was to have 2 workers per city, so my pre-t20 ruin cycle was settler-worker-gold and I think I hard-built a worker in 5 cities before starting granaries. The idea was to get roads up very quickly, and farm as many riverside tiles as I could by the time I hit Civil Service. I was making ~80 gpt by the time I hit Education thanks to the road connections.

I purchased 4 universities (3 instantly and 1 more a couple of turns later; no Mercantilism), 5 schools (Mercantilism), and 6 labs (Merc+Big Ben). Also bought 5 workshops I believe. Maybe it was better to buy Observatories, but the workshops sped up some important stuff like the Artists' Guild, Machu Picchu etc. I took Mercantilism after Secularism, didn't manage to fit it in before Renaissance despite pushing culture pretty hard. Even built Parthenon.

Early 140s is definitely doable, maybe a narrow sub-140 but that seems really difficult. Maybe on a dream desert map, or desert/jungle for a nice post-Education boost.

 

[Blatc]

Interesting, so 8 military units (starting pathfinder, 5x built pathfinders, spearman and archer) - definitely more than I was producing. Same with the workers, I've been leaving cities with 0-1 worker for far too long, it seems.

In the maps I rolled, I was more likely to get a 'dream desert' or desert/jungle map using the Inland Sea map type. That reduces the number of ruins and barbs camps (re: gold) you'll get, though it does speed up meeting everyone.

 

[vadalaz]

Oh sorry, it was 5 pathfinders including the starting one. I built the spearman and archer to complete two cultural CS quests near my starting location, as all the pathfinders were too far away and I was trying to get Mercantilism asap. Eventually I got some gifts from Militaristic CSs so I sent those hunting for barb camps/CS tributes as well.

I tried a couple of Inland Sea starts, but the map script didn't seem that great on Standard size to me. In one of the attempts I couldn't even find a ruin after turn 20 to get my pantheon up. On Huge it's probably the best map for fast SVs though.

 

[Blatc]

How quickly did you have your 6th city settled in your T148 game? I think that would give a good approximate target point.

On Highlands, I think horseman (upgrade to Knight) is a good unit to build/buy for nearby barb camp quests, while upgrading most of the pathfinders can resolve quests further away.

My very first map rolled on Inland Sea was incredible; that created a bias and convinced me to try many more starts on that map type, though I did get down to mid-T150s. It also makes for a faster game, but I agree that Highland map should be the best/fastest possible on standard/Settler.

 

[vadalaz]

I planted the 6th city on turn 27. Didn't build or buy any settlers, got all 5 of them from ruins. Other milestones were:

- T72 NC
- T76 Education
- T107 Sci Theory (bulb)
- T125 Plastics (bulb at Radio and another one at Replaceable parts)

For a sub-140 you'd need a T120 or earlier Plastics I guess, then finish the game in 20 turns from there. Seems really difficult though, I'm not sure how I could've shaved off 5 or more turns off my Plastics timing there other than by bulbing another GS. Have you done the math regarding building LToP right away or delaying it on settler? I delayed it in my game, could've had it on T107 or perhaps T100-102 if I took a different tech path, delaying Astronomy.

 

[Blatc]

I've bulbed similarly, and also bulbed as:
1 GS into Industrial (either to get in ASAP re: faith accumulation or at Scientific Theory)
Oxford into Radio
1 bulb for the 2 techs preceding Plastics
1 bulb for Plastics
So, 3 GS and Oxford all before Plastics. I did this in 1 or 2 of my fastest games following previous games where I had 1-2 GS leftover.

I think I did the math back when I saw your T164 or so finish and was working towards breaking T160. I elected to built LToP immediately and part of my rationale was to ensure a 3rd natural GW and GA. The faster the finish, the more reason to delay LToP. If putting Science Funding through the World Congress, there's potential to not reach 3rd GW in time or have 3rd GA late enough to have little impact. I likely need to build Guilds earlier, but my early game isn't as strong as yours.

I planted the 6th city on turn 27. Didn't build or buy any settlers, got all 5 of them from ruins. Other milestones were:

- T72 NC
- T76 Education
- T107 Sci Theory (bulb)
- T125 Plastics (bulb at Radio and another one at Replaceable parts)

For a sub-140 you'd need a T120 or earlier Plastics I guess, then finish the game in 20 turns from there. Seems really difficult though, I'm not sure how I could've shaved off 5 or more turns off my Plastics timing there other than by bulbing another GS. Have you done the math regarding building LToP right away or delaying it on settler? I delayed it in my game, could've had it on T107 or perhaps T100-102 if I took a different tech path, delaying Astronomy.

I had a narrow miss (T149, Settler, Highlands, Poca) with a slightly different approach: instead of saving gold for Universities, I made an effort to resolve Maritime CS quests early (mainly barb camps) and topped them up with gold to get early food boost. I have yet to approach settling 6th city by T27 (with Tradition) and am much closer to T40 in my attempts. With big late-game pop, I was slightly behind your milestones throughout but closed a bit faster, 22 turns from Plastics to finish. Some small mistakes (missed Stonehenge and with low early faith chose Tithe), but main room for improvement now is just getting cities up earlier.

 

[vadalaz]

Nicely done. I couldn't match 6 cities by T27 in the next few attempts either. I think I was just lucky with the ruins in the t148 game.

As for room for improvement, I don't see much other than rolling a perfect map. Trying to finish World's Fair for a Liberty GS in the end maybe? Though you'd probably have to bulb Printing Press and delay Astronomy then to get the proposal early enough.

 

[Blatc]

I proposed WF in one of my earliest attempts on Settler, when I was still learning the key differences from Deity and didn't fully realize what that meant production wise; pretty sure I finished the game before the 20 turns were up, and that's in a slower game. I agree that, if we're talking about sub-T140, you'd have to bulb Printing Press and delay Astronomy. I think Mercantilism (or Jesuit) is vital to fast SV on Settler, and would be even more important given the # of hammers going into WF (2-3x what we'd contribute on Deity).

Finishing faster and faster means compressing the game and key changes for me have included removing policies or builds that aren't necessary, down to a bare minimum of 21 policies (Tradition, Merc, Rationalism, Freedom). I think it's more doable to replace Tradition with Liberty (and find ways to reach comparable population/science) than to add another tree. I had a previous attempt with 2 in Tradition (Wonder modifier), full Liberty (extra GS at end), and Merc; I thought this was a promising strategy.

Looking specifically at my T149 game, the easiest way to add another GS is by placing more focus on Faith and hitting 5,000-6,000. I think trimming a few turns off Education (plant 6th city closer to T30 than T40, last couple Libraries and NC done slightly earlier) and hitting those faith numbers are possible and would produce sub-T145.

Vadalaz, what are your thoughts on:
early gold into Maritime CS vs. Universities
building or buying 1 settler to get 6th city settled ~T30-32

 

[vadalaz]

Re: early gold, not sure. It's probably a good idea to buy at least one university in the city that gets the last natural GS. A rushed university would likely speed up that GS by one turn. Hard to predict which city that's going to be, though. In other cities I don't think buying universities matters as much, as the GPP loss is irrelevant and the beaker loss negligible in the long run, so the maritime food could very well be the better investment.

Buying/building a settler is a good idea, I think.

 

[Blatc]

With 6 cities, I've been aiming for 8 natural GS. My approach has usually been to aim to get 2 GS from the cities with an extra GPP from Great Library and Oracle, most likely the capital and a strong expo. I aim to finish LToP shortly after the 2nd GS, so that city will need to produce 200 + 900 = 1100 GPP. That means, if buying Universities but not in the GL/Oracle cities, it's best to wait a few turns, so the expo with the purchased University doesn't end up producing a GS first. If purchasing in one of the GL/Oracle cities, then it would be okay to purchase in a weak city right away (typically the weakest city that won't have a garden).
Ideally, all cities are planted quickly and you can pick up a couple Maritime CS allies, in which case purchasing Universities isn't necessary (especially given there's most likely no discount). If that looks like it's going to be the case, a Granary in the last city or two might be one of the best uses of early gold.

With a stronger start - 6th city planted before T35 - I've trimmed it down to a T147 finish. I planted a 7th city later as well. Faith bought 2 GS and 1 GE, as I wasn't going to make it to 5,000 faith. I don't think I got enough gold out of the 100 per city to make it worthwhile, given that the comparison with Tithe (and little to no active spreading) needs to factor in faith from planted prophets. Worth considering: how much gold by Plastics (from faith) is equal value to a 3rd faith GS? 1,000 gold? 2,000 gold?

3,500 faith is relatively easy on Settler, with the 2 faith per wonder and Reliquary. Planting prophets puts you in a better position to hit 5,000/6,000 not only from their output post-Industrial, but potentially accumulating more before Industrial.

My main error this game was not generating enough culture and only taking the Commerce opener, which led to building more schools/labs than I'd like. Putting some gold into Cultural CS (earlier) would have paid itself back and more in the long run with Merc. T123 Plastics, but I lost value on the bulbs up to Apollo due to getting Labs up late, so it took 24 turns from Plastics to finish.

I think a key factor to taking a significant chunk off at this point will be producing an 8th natural GS before T140, which comes back to getting those science buildings up immediately through gold or faith purchasing.

 

[vadalaz]

T-Hawk describes how to get a good set of CSs in his latest report:

The roster of city-states gets determined upon starting from the game-setup screen; the list stays the same when you "restart game" to reroll a map while already in game. For most of the playthroughs I report here, I take advantage of this. If I play a partial start then discard it, I know what city-states are present. I can restart with that same roster if I like it, or generate a new list from the game-setup screen. (That's what went wrong for Korea. The first start went well enough to play out so I never discarded any, so never had the chance to reroll away from the list that included only three maritimes.)

To set up this game, I took a shortcut, and discovered that you can simply open the save file in a text editor and read the roster of city-states that way. This isn't exactly cheating; the same knowledge is possible if you simply explore in-game to find all the city-states.

 

[fimbul]

Thats very niffy vadalaz. I guess its valid for HOF? Time to roll maps til you get one with a bazillion culture and rel CS.

 

[Blatc]

This will only apply in certain situations, such as the Shoshone/Settler/Highlands (or large map) with DF and a desert start, with additional ruins remaining:
after the first prophet, if you don't found a religion, you can select faith from a ruin and will receive 90 faith (increase from 60 before 1st prophet appears). If you have 4 ruins left, this could mean 180 faith towards your 2nd prophet. I discovered this selecting a ruin on the same turn a prophet appeared; I don't know if you can plant the prophet, or if that would even be the best move (requiring 300 + 500 faith to found + enhance), probably situational.
I suppose this could also occur with a low amount of faith coming in, after having selected 3 x 60 faith prophets; in my case it was 2, with a good amount coming in from DF. The main limitation is going to be a map with that many ruins.

 

[T-hawk]

You can plant the first prophet and get 90 faith from each ruin towards the second, yes. It's a strong move because cities founded after your religion no longer get the pantheon for free. So delay the religion by settling the first prophet, and you make up more than the difference by cities #4-10 getting Desert Folklore immediately rather than waiting to convert by pressure or missionary. (This probably doesn't apply to Settler difficulty if you're popping all your settlers from ruins and settling the cities before the religion anyway.)

If you want a map with lots of ruins, try a huge size Inland Sea. About 30 ruins is common on Prince difficulty.

I don't know if looking at the save file to see the roster of city-states is legit for HOF play; it's not my ruling to make,

 

[Blatc]

Thanks T-hawk. I was going for a fast time on Settler, so 5/6 cities were planted already, with 6th to be founded shortly, and the unknown came down to whether planting the prophet or waiting a few turns then founding was the better play.
Waiting to found with first prophet means at 500 faith I enhance, and send missionaries out at 700/900/etc. This was using the 100 gold per city founder belief.
Planting the first prophet means I would enhance at 1000 faith and send missionaries at 1200/1400/etc. If worked immediately, planting at ~T30 would yield 6 per turn until say T120, at which point selecting the Freedom belief to make that 10 until the game ended (aiming for T145), so roughly (6x90) + (10x25) = 540 + 250 = 790 faith, with a trade off of delayed spreading, likely less gold from the 100/city by Education (possibly 1 less University purchase at T7x), and a loss of 1 hammer or food per turn for the immediate tile yield. I think I prefer waiting and founding with first prophet in this scenario, but recognize it's situation specific and planting must make sense if there's many more cities to be founded.

I'm not experienced on larger maps, with even more ruins, but now I'm curious if you could continue this into the 3rd prophet: plant or wait with the first, plant or wait with the second prophet, and keep hitting ruins. Perhaps the faith value increases again to 120?

 

[zenmaster]

Blatc, saw you got your Settler Shoshone Science victory time down to T147. Nicely done!

I saw you got your 5th expansion city down by T32 this time. Any change in strategies? Did you change your early build order any to accommodate more workers/units? Did you go heavy into Maritime CSes or did you buy universities? Curious to see what you did given your pondering in previous posts!