Fastest Science Victory

[Notacop]

@Notacop, T-Hawk has this interesting read on the number of cities, too.

http://www.dos486.com/civ5/index/science.shtml

Yes thank you, very interesting read. Although see below.

Yes, I mostly get a tech every turn after Satellites. I start by filling in whatever cheapest techs are available (Navigation - Biology) which are 1-turn by themselves. I spend a bulb on any turn when I don't have enough beakers to finish a tech, and overflow from the bulb usually carries through 1-3 more turns of 1-turn techs. The bulb value maxes at about 14k beakers, which is enough to cover a second-to-last column tech (about 12k) and overflow to something cheaper as well. (The last column isn't really important; you only actually research one of them; you only need two for the spaceship and Oxford claims one.)

I see. I start losing steam at telecommunications/combined arms techs if I start bulbing right at 8 turns after plastics, as the bulb value isn't quite as high with fewer cities (which I'll address below). I'll fire up an end game and practice correct bulbing. Do you usually have ~12-13 gs for post lab bulbing? So roughly 1 gs for 2 first column atomic era techs then 1 gs + overflow for remaining techs?

Edit: Nevermind, I'm reading your Poland Polymath report. Looks like you use 8 post plastic bulbs, getting around 20 techs with the bulb and overflow. That higher city count is doing work.

City count is essential for that to work. 5 cities isn't enough. I prefer 10-12 cities on a huge map. Waiting for the 1100 GPP great scientist is too long. I aim for 700 or 800, and for that plus all the endgame GScis (Porcelain, Hubble, faith, Liberty finisher) to be enough to finish the tech tree. To finish the tech tree on that requires getting the bulb value up to about 14k, which requires 10-12 cities.

I now always spend exactly two bulbs between Sci Theory and Plastics. To have enough surplus scientists to do that again depends on getting that beaker count way up, with more cities.

I agree that more cities are optimal. However, the way it actually plays out is dependent on map size and difficulty. I usually play standard size map, pangea or great plains, with deity level ai, and CFC HOF rules (except for reloading). Not a whole lot of room for expansion on standard maps, plus the deity ai taking a lot of land for themselves early on. I don't typically play wide (because I'm absolute trash at it), so I'm not saying that 10-12 peacefully founded cities can't be done on standard size map, I just can't personally do it. I can run out to 6, maybe 7 cities if there's good terrain and enough luxuries, but I like to spread my cities out a bit to give them enough room to grow, so I run out of space for more cities pretty fast. On huge maps it's definitely easier to settle that many cities because of the larger area to work with and more viable city locations (because each city has to pull its weight science wise to be worth founding).

Porcelain tower can be tricky on higher difficulties as well. I've had deity games where the ai builds it in turns 150s-160s, and other games where they never build it. I've lost it enough times to not take that risk anymore, building it soon after it's available. It's annoying because the game won't show that the ai's have taken the rationalism opener, so it's hard to judge if it's safe to put off building it. Building pt early can delay the last gs by 4-8 turns depending on number of cities and which gs it displaces.

For an optimized science game, I can see a huge map with 10-12 cities and a lower difficulty ai for less wonder pressure being the way to go. Your reports prove as much. I just haven't been playing that way, been stuck on standard size maps. That will be the next thing I try when I get some time to play again.

 

[Tzar Sasha]

Been repeating the same game settings while trying to improve my science finish times. Three games in and I've shaved off almost 200 turns (about 100 between each). Still a 1400 something AD finish is a long way off of the current 600 something AD finishes already listed in the HOF for those settings. Anyone know if the already posted games are prior to patches that may have changed things? Will I ever be able to get that fast?

Game settings: Settler, Huge, Highlands, Marathon, Shoshone
Link to current HOF games: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/tab...pe=5&leader=41&mapSize=6&speed=4&dtSc=0&exp=2
(none of mine have been published as of this posting)

Don't get me wrong. I am actually happy to have a sub 600 turn science win on Marathon. I just want to know if it is possible to reach the speeds of what has already been posted.

 

[Notacop]

I can't answer you definitively, as I don't have any experience with marathon speed and I don't know how to see what version of the game the HOF saves are. But from a quick look up, marathon is roughly 3x standard speed, so finishes in the 420 turns would be about 140 on standard, definitely possible on settler.

@T-hawk: Finally got some time to play again. I tried doing a huge map with 10 cities to start. Seems to take a little bit of a different play style. Some questions I have:

-When going liberty, do you build a monument in the capitol before collective rule? The culture seems necessary in getting to cr in good time but it delays the capitol's build order

-At what point in their build order do you have newly founded cities make additional military and/or workers? I tried having each new city go granary -> library -> monument -> watermill -> university -> extra military/worker, but it felt way too late. Maybe after library is better?

-How do you deal with the hard crunch on gold in the early to mid game? City connections + Machu Picchu is obviously one way, but before that? I had negative gpt from about turn 50 onwards, and every ai had negative gpt from t30 onwards so I couldn't trade excess luxuries for gpt.

-How do you gauge how many cities you can settle happiness wise? I think I had 6 luxuries and settled 10 cities, but I don't have a good feel for whether I should settle more cities.

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[Blatc]

If anyone hasn't tried this map, they're missing out - so much fun!
With considerable replays and previous knowledge, this will be my last run at the map.
I think replaying/comparing has helped me improve my bulbing considerably, as well as late-game decision re: when to stop building buildings (much closer to Plastics than previously).

Looks like I wasn't done with this map. With some strategy changes, and closely tracking GS points, I've refined my game further and brought this down at a T168 SV finish! In brief:
*I've been building trading posts much earlier, before they produce science, to maximize how many I can work; my end game is primarily working trading posts and specialist slots
*I had written about getting Metal Casting early, before Education, but that was only a brief phase where I did that, then returned to prioritizing Education, Astronomy, then workshops along the normal path to Printing Press. In any game where you're looking to produce multiple GS from a single city (8 from 6 cities, in this game), delaying Education is likely a mistake.
*built Hubble in capital while strong expo built Apollo. Used GE on SoL, partly for Mercantilism timing for Labs.
*started using spies better, moving them around for coups, keeping tabs on how many turns to next CS election and moving 5 turns out to arrive just in time
*my capital was 35 pop in this T168 game, vs 43 pop in T181
*I built or purchased every specialist building (except Musicians guild) in every city. Along with mass trading posts, this got me to ~1800 beakers from 6 cities (pop 35, 18, 23, 22, 18, 18), with final bulbs able to cover the furthest 2 techs
*internal trade routes switched to hammers in final 25 turns, even if not going to a city building a wonder, just science

Edit. Only DoWed 2 other civs, both early game. I stayed at war with Japan for a while, picking off caravans and getting workers. I took this so far as to pay Arabia for open borders, to enter their territory and pick off several more caravans.

 

[Notacop]

Blatc: On that Spain map, what were your city locations and timings? Did you go 3 city nc? For your Apollo city, did you have to take off specialists to work hammer tiles? I really like that map and want to play it again, so I'm interested in whatever information your willing to share on your run. Congrats by the way, I think thats the fastest time I've seen for a standard/standard/deity map!

 

[Blatc]

City locations were same as previous attempts. City to the South is on wheat with coast on either side. City on island to the East is next to faith mountain, for observatory. 6th city founded late 40s; went 6-city NC, finishing in the early T80s.
Education T86, Astronomy T97, Sci Theory T119 (bulb), Oxford Radio, Plastics T145 (bulb).
T86 Edu may seem late; it includes Optics, which was necessary for one of the cities. I juggled techs early game to take advantage of reduced tech costs when meeting other civs (something I don't normally do), while also being sure to finish techs just before founding cities, as that increases their costs.
I had 2, possibly 3 expos, capable of building Apollo while working all specialists; I sent hammers via cargo ships final 25 turns. I actually had to delay Hubble in capital, switching to science for a few turns, because it was building it so fast and I needed to wait until after final natural GS.
Again, lots of replays and previous map knowledge. I'm not aware of any other sub-T170 Deity SV.

 

[Iamteehee]

I think sub t165, maybe even sub t160 is within the realm of possibility for Spain (with a lot of previous map knowledge). I decided to retry vadalaz's Spain map again and got a 7 city t76 education and I'm fairly sure I could have cut off another turn or 2. A t160 victory would mean 84-86 turns from education to victory, which is quite reasonable with 7 cities.

Edit: got lazy during the last 50 or so turns and ended up winning on t171. I'll probably go back to it and cut off a few turns later.

 

[Notacop]

T181 Spain/Lakes, HOF rules

Highlights:

- T5 settle next to Mt Kili. Found two more NWs shortly after for tons of gold
- Fast 3-city NC, settled one more right after. Finished Tradition on T65 IIRC
- I went Patronage and got Scholasticism pre-Renaissance. In the end I couldn't get enough culture to get Mercantilism because Venice bought one cultural CS and Attila conquered another, leaving just one cultural CS for the World's Fair
- CB rush to take Marrakech and Adrianople (razed), settled one more city near GBR
- Education T87, Machinery ~T100, took Constantinople and Amsterdam with XBs for a total of 8 cities by T120 or so
- Religion: Tithe/Mosques/faith from WWs/IP, faith-bought 2 GS and 2 GE. This was a mistake, the correct play was 3 GS + 1 GE here. Though had I played the science correctly, I wouldn't have gotten the gold in time anyway. A sub-180 is doable on this map with more optimal play
- Diplo: hug-fest at first, followed by a ton of backstabs (my bribes), and in the end all AIs hated each other. I got a ton of money out of peace deals, not quite as much as I wanted, but I can't complain. For some reason in the mid-game Attila was just amassing gold and never spent it on anything, around T140 he had over 4k gold in treasury. I've seen Ashurbanipal do the same in a different game, he actually had over 10k there at one point. Not sure what makes the AIs do this... Anyway, throughout the game I probably got well over 6000 gold from Attila alone, so that helped a lot
- Tried yung.carl.jung's strategy with fast Industrialization and a Great Prophet for instant Coal. Got Freedom on t131, same turn as Sci Theory. Plastics T152 with a double bulb. Fast Universal Suffrage was very nice

I attached the map, the save requires all DLC

Is this the map you are referring to? Did you conquer cities as he did or self-found all yours? Congrats on the finish time, t171 is still really impressive.

 

[Iamteehee]

Yeah it's that one.
I founded all the cities. Bought 5 with money from natural wonders and peace deals (from worker stealing), produced 1 settler.

 

[Iamteehee]

A strategy I never realized was how good it was is rush buying banks/stock exchanges after labs. You can buy a bank/stock exchange for 460/730 gold and work the specialist slot to get 6-9/10-15 (depends on if the city has observatory/nc) science and get almost all of that 460/730 gold back by selling the gpt to an ai and then buy some more. It would work even better with order, but the downside of that is that you picked order.

I also got my victory down to t167

Spoiler :

 

[Notacop]

Wow, congrats on the finish time. That is really good. I wonder how much more these games can be optimized, I don't know how you could possibly get sub t160 but maybe its possible with the right map.

Your game inspired me to try the vadalaz's Spain map. Damn, this map is insane. I think I had 7 cities (5 settlers bought!) by turn 45 or so, and working Mt. Kili and both GBR tiles meant blazing through tradition and the tech tree, and gold was never an issue. Ended up finishing on t186, but lost a few turns at the end due to stupid mistakes, should have been 183. I planted cities in the same locations as you, but those locations have such low production that it took forever to get them ramped up. I couldn't really capitalize on the fast start, all the granaries and libraries took 15-20+ turns. How did you deal with this? Do you keep cities at size 1 and just work a hill to get the buildings done and then grow? I tried to grow to size to quickly then work a mix of food and production, but still took forever, not sure what the best play is here. The early DOW's from multiple AI were easier to deal with, just bribe Attila to fight everyone.

 

[Iamteehee]

I decided that I would get NC after education so I wasn't really in a hurry to build libraries. I grew my cities as normal (except when there was unhappiness) I bought aqueducts in all the cities which didn't get free ones from tradition. Workers stolen/built in the better cities helped with crappy production (I think I should have chopped quite a bit more though)
I think I got all my cities out a few turns faster than you. Did you get any gold off peace deals with AI early game? I got like 10ish gpt + 200 gold

 

[T-hawk]

-When going liberty, do you build a monument in the capitol before collective rule? The culture seems necessary in getting to cr in good time but it delays the capitol's build order

Yes except for Shoshone. The Shoshone don't need it because they can pick culture enough times (5) from ruins to get to Collective Rule, and don't need it to acquire tiles because of Great Expanse. Anyone besides Shoshone does need the early monument both for CR and for tiles.

-At what point in their build order do you have newly founded cities make additional military and/or workers? I tried having each new city go granary -> library -> monument -> watermill -> university -> extra military/worker, but it felt way too late. Maybe after library is better?

The first few cities (up to about 5) do squeeze in a unit and/or worker before the library. Cities 6-8 build granary - library. Cities 9-11 build library first and get a caravan food route instead of the granary (and also I've got several maritime allies by then.)

-How do you deal with the hard crunch on gold in the early to mid game? City connections + Machu Picchu is obviously one way, but before that? I had negative gpt from about turn 50 onwards, and every ai had negative gpt from t30 onwards so I couldn't trade excess luxuries for gpt.

Negative gpt is normal until Machu Picchu. City-state first-contacts and tributes are the most reliable source of gold before then. That's also a major advantage of playing on lower difficulty, that you get more first-contacts and need less unit strength to get tributes. But also, the answer is that you don't really need gold during this time. It's OK to be broke and just not buy anything after the first few workers up until public schools.

-How do you gauge how many cities you can settle happiness wise? I think I had 6 luxuries and settled 10 cities, but I don't have a good feel for whether I should settle more cities.

That's about right, 6 unique luxuries is good to 10 cities on a huge map. Any additional cities with a unique luxury are worth settling, but don't do any more without one. Mercantile city-states also matter for happiness.

 

[Notacop]

I decided that I would get NC after education so I wasn't really in a hurry to build libraries. I grew my cities as normal (except when there was unhappiness) I bought aqueducts in all the cities which didn't get free ones from tradition. Workers stolen/built in the better cities helped with crappy production (I think I should have chopped quite a bit more though)
I think I got all my cities out a few turns faster than you. Did you get any gold off peace deals with AI early game? I got like 10ish gpt + 200 gold

I see. Yeah I figured an early NC was out of the picture, but the GBR makes up for that. I could only get gold from one luxury sell in a peace deal, I think from Morocco. Did you have to kill a lot of the ai units to get that much gold? My buying order was settler (Mt. Kili) -> settler (Old Faithful) -> settler (Grand Mesa) -> worker (GBR tile 1), so the worker could also explain it. The worker purchase was to mine the salt to make sure I had enough happiness to grow at the GBR city to work both reef tiles early. Did you purchase anything besides settlers?

I'm going to replay the map, but this time go liberty to republic and citizenship. I think the extra hammer and fast workers will help boost the early production. I'll have to build all the monuments and aqueducts, and it does seem like a waste to go liberty without utilizing collective rule, but I believe it will work out well. I can also save finishing liberty for the end game to get another scientist which will help the finish time. We'll see how it goes.

Yes except for Shoshone. The Shoshone don't need it because they can pick culture enough times (5) from ruins to get to Collective Rule, and don't need it to acquire tiles because of Great Expanse. Anyone besides Shoshone does need the early monument both for CR and for tiles.




The first few cities (up to about 5) do squeeze in a unit and/or worker before the library. Cities 6-8 build granary - library. Cities 9-11 build library first and get a caravan food route instead of the granary (and also I've got several maritime allies by then.)




Negative gpt is normal until Machu Picchu. City-state first-contacts and tributes are the most reliable source of gold before then. That's also a major advantage of playing on lower difficulty, that you get more first-contacts and need less unit strength to get tributes. But also, the answer is that you don't really need gold during this time. It's OK to be broke and just not buy anything after the first few workers up until public schools.




That's about right, 6 unique luxuries is good to 10 cities on a huge map. Any additional cities with a unique luxury are worth settling, but don't do any more without one. Mercantile city-states also matter for happiness.

Thanks T-hawk, this is really helpful. I like this play style, it's a nice break from the standard 4/5 city tradition game. You have any new civ 5 reports in the pipeline?

 

[Iamteehee]

My buy order was scout settler settler settler settler (from NWs), settler (from peace deal). I also bought a worker later on.

Capital build order was something like scout, scout, scout, settler, Great Library.

I killed like 1-2 of Morocco's units. I hit 2 upgrade ruins, which helped.

I think the hardest part of the liberty run will be the late game policy crunch. Without a GE for SoL, you might have trouble with getting good lategame policies quickly. You might have to delay free thought to get mercantilism before plastics.

 

[Blatc]

I've diligently replayed the vadalaz Spain deity map down to a T149 SV finish. Final save attached.

 

[BlackWizard]

How does this bulbing really work? If I remember correctly it is written that you should select tech so you wont waste beakers. However this happened in my last game
1. I researched scifi theory and bulbed without selecting next tech. Then I selected electricity and it had one turn left to research. Then I reloaded because of this mistake

2. After researching scifi theory i selected electricity and bulbed. It had now 2 turns left to research

I thought it was supposed to work vice versa?

 

[beetle]

How does this bulbing really work? If I remember correctly it is written that you should select tech so you wont waste beakers.

Those are two different problems: (1) research automatically going into a tech that you are not so interested in; and (2) wasting overflow from GS bulbs.

The first problem mostly happens from RA maturing, but I think there are some other circumstances.

GS bulb research overflow is capped at the greater of five turns of research or the current tech you are researching. So part of a GS bulb going to waste can only happen if both (1) you have less than five turns left to research and (2) the beaker cost of the tech you are researching is less what you are getting from GS.

So if you are ready to bulb, it can make sense to switch to a fresh new tech, and put what you are researching in tree behind the fresh new tech.

All that said, I cannot explain why Electricity went from 1 turn to 2!

 

[psparky]

The difference between 1 and 2 turns might be only a tiny number of beakers of course. My best guess is that case 2 missed out on some overflow inflation if some other civs have researched Electricity.

@beetle, at the risk of seeming pedantic (which I probably am ), the second part of the overflow cap is the base cost of the tech, not the actual beaker cost. There can be a huge difference between the two!

Also, the rule "you have less than five turns left to research" is not correct. At standard speed, four turns is always enough as this means at least three full turns worth on the current tech so an overflow of at most five (from 8 turns value of the bulb).

 

[beetle]

Thanks for the corrections @psparky! It is certainly easier to only worry about 4 turns rather than 5. But what is the difference between “base cost of the tech” and the “actual beaker cost”? Are you referring to how there is a discounted when other civs have researched the tech? Which is cost displayed when the player mouses over the current tech being researching in the main playing window?