Favorite UU Part I

[obsolete]

I have a suspicion that Fast Workers might be no better than Expansive Workers.

Fast Workers don't force your leader into needing an expansive trait.

 

[itg]

I don't have the expansion so I don't know for sure how they work...but at least on paper, the Expansive Worker isn't any better on Quick than a regular worker; it's roughly equal to a FW at Normal Speed; it's far and away superior at Marathon.

That's assuming Expansive Workers build improvements in 3/4 of the time (a farm on Flood Plains at Marathon would take 19 x .75 = 14.25 turns--7 turns faster).

Expansive leaders get +25% toward building workers, but they just get plain workers.

 

[Xenaphobe]

Expansive leaders get +25% toward building workers, but they just get plain workers.

That makes more sense. Is that in addition to +3 Health/city and faster Granary production? Or does it replace them?

 

[Spectrite]

That makes more sense. Is that in addition to +3 Health/city and faster Granary production? Or does it replace them?

In addition to those bonuses, although in BTS, it's only +2 Health.

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Not entirely. Units only cost twice as much on Marathon.

Yes - in that case, 1 turn on Normal = 2 turns on Marathon. A turn on Marathon is still worth less.

And the food to support your population is the same (a 2F tile on Marathon is just as good (or bad) as a 2F tile on Normal/Quick).

However, the amount of food required to grow to the next population level is not the same. That's why working a 3 tile on Marathon at pop 1 will take 22 turns to reach 2 population, while on Normal, it only takes 8 turns.

It's like comparing apples to oranges though. Otherwise, every time a worker (or any unit) used its last movement point to move into a hill/forest/jungle tile, according to this "rule" it would "gain a turn".

Not sure what you mean. I thought the comparison was Fast Workers on Normal speed vs. Fast Workers on Marathon speed.

Oh, and Musketeers would get a lot more votes.

They are a good unit, but not anywhere close to the best, IMO. Mostly because musketmen aren't so great.

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Fast Workers don't force your leader into needing an expansive trait.

Well, you could say that non-Fast Workers don't force you into playing India.

 

[Mustakrakish]

For a long time I was sure that fast workers actually build stuff faster...

 

[obsolete]

Well, you could say that non-Fast Workers don't force you into playing India.

Name me one expert player who doesn't think Ghandi is a top tier leader...

 

[Ataxerxes]

I don't have the expansion so I don't know for sure how they work...but at least on paper, the Expansive Worker isn't any better on Quick than a regular worker; it's roughly equal to a FW at Normal Speed; it's far and away superior at Marathon.

That's assuming Expansive Workers build improvements in 3/4 of the time (a farm on Flood Plains at Marathon would take 19 x .75 = 14.25 turns--7 turns faster).

I can't add to what 20 other people, including me early on, have said about why speed matters. I posted early on that extra movement points are more valuable at faster speeds. It's just that the turns saved are more important at faster speeds.

I'm not sure I understand your points about expansive workers. Expansive workers are created 25% faster, they aren't dependent on speed. You save more turns creating expansive workers on Marathon, but the turns you save are worth less. It washes out.

Your second paragraph doesn't make sense to me. You only save on creation time with Expansive workers, they don't build stuff faster.

 

[Spectrite]

Name me one expert player who doesn't think Ghandi is a top tier leader...

I wasn't saying India's leaders are bad. I just don't see how "being forced to play as an Expansive leader" is any worse than "being forced to play as India". Do you mean that Expansive is a bad trait?

 

[Xenaphobe]

Not sure what you mean. I thought the comparison was Fast Workers on Normal speed vs. Fast Workers on Marathon speed.

We're only comparing the advantage Fast Workers give you on Normal vs. the advantage they give you on Marathon.

In a direct comparison, you are correct: Normal Speed FWs are better than Marathon Speed FWs because production is reduced by 1/3 or 1/2 (2-3 times better). However, the production boost has nothing to do with the Fast Worker; a regular Worker is also 2-3 times better at Normal.

The only advantage of the Faster Worker (+1 movement) isn't affected by the speed of the game: it's the same at Normal or Marathon.

 

[Xenaphobe]

I'm not sure I understand your points about expansive workers. Expansive workers are created 25% faster, they aren't dependent on speed. You save more turns creating expansive workers on Marathon, but the turns you save are worth less. It washes out.

Your second paragraph doesn't make sense to me. You only save on creation time with Expansive workers, they don't build stuff faster.

Like I said, I don't have the expansion, so I wasn't sure how they worked. I misread it as a 25% bonus to building improvements.

I think the +25% production speed is slightly better than the FW +1 movement speed at Quick/Normal, and a lot better at Marathon. If you start the game with typical land (2F, 1Hammer city, plus 1 3F tile = 4 production towards a Worker), a non-Expansive worker takes 10/15/30 turns to produce (if my math is right); the Expansive trait cuts it to 8/12/24. So the Expansive Worker gives you a 2/3/6 turn head-start building improvements.

So (barring funky math on my part), Expansive Workers should be better than FWs at the start of the game (generally the most critical).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Like I said, I don't have the expansion, so I wasn't sure how they worked. I misread it as a 25% bonus to building improvements.

I think the +25% production speed is slightly better than the FW +1 movement speed at Quick/Normal, and a lot better at Marathon. If you start the game with typical land (2F, 1Hammer city, plus 1 3F tile = 4 production towards a Worker), a non-Expansive worker takes 10/15/30 turns to produce (if my math is right); the Expansive trait cuts it to 8/12/24. So the Expansive Worker gives you a 2/3/6 turn head-start building improvements.

So (barring funky math on my part), Expansive Workers should be better than FWs at the start of the game (generally the most critical).

There aren't many uniques out there that stack up to a trait.

 

[Xenaphobe]

There aren't many uniques out there that stack up to a trait.

Partial trait. And it's rather dubious that either Expansive Workers or FWs offer anything more significant than a perceptional advantage. Though it makes prefect sense FW score high as a "favorite" UU.

 

[Shamonix]

I'm voting for the Redcoat because no matter the circumstances, I'm almost always ready for a war once I research Rifling. The boost against any unit that can give them a good fight makes an already extremely useful unit even more useful, nearly every game. Some of the other great UUs in the game are much more likely to not be utilized depending on the current state of the game.

 

[Spectrite]

We're only comparing the advantage Fast Workers give you on Normal vs. the advantage they give you on Marathon.

In a direct comparison, you are correct: Normal Speed FWs are better than Marathon Speed FWs because production is reduced by 1/3 or 1/2 (2-3 times better). However, the production boost has nothing to do with the Fast Worker; a regular Worker is also 2-3 times better at Normal.

If you're comparing the "advantage Fast Workers give you", then you're looking at the Fast Worker's movement bonus, since it's the only advantage it offers. Specifically, the way this movement bonus helps is that it allows the FW to move to a tile faster, or move onto forest/jungle/hill terrain and be able to start working on an improvement the same turn. This means you get an extra turn, one more than you would have if you had been using a normal Worker. And since we've already established that one turn on Normal is worth three on Marathon, this extra turn is worth more on Normal.

So I probably should have phrased it this way: The Fast Worker's advantage over a normal Worker is bigger on Normal than it is on Marathon.

The only advantage of the Faster Worker (+1 movement) isn't affected by the speed of the game: it's the same at Normal or Marathon.

This isn't true. In fact, unit movement is one of the few things that is affected by the game speed. Most things are scaled to the speed of the game: tech cost, hammer cost for units/buildings, city growth, etc. But unit speed is not scaled. A unit will move one tile in one turn on Normal, and one tile in one turn on Marathon. Same distance, but different times, since a turn on Normal is 1/500 of the game, while a turn on Marathon is 1/1500 of the game.

 

[babar]

It's a tough call because with restricted leaders on uniques were balanced for their leaders (at least in theory ). Then you have things like the dog soldier which are awful in their traditional role but can do some things the base unit can't do...an AGG axe is certainly better for a rush (any axes is better for a rush)...unless the rush is against you. Then, the dog soldier is *always* available, can't be pillaged away, and completely wrecks all choking or rushing melee...and a couple can be pretty annoying choke/pillagers themselves which might save you some hassle against the super warmongers.

Most uniques (not all) are unquestionably better than the AGG/PRO units they replace though. The point is that each AGG/PRO unit represents only a fraction of the benefit of the trait, likewise with an expansive worker. I'm not arguing for expansive workers over fast workers anymore though, partly because I hadn't realised they were down to a 25% hammer bonus...

 

[Xenaphobe]

So I probably should have phrased it this way: The Fast Worker's advantage over a normal Worker is bigger on Normal than it is on Marathon.

I'll try one last example. To keep it simple, we'll use a city with a 2 population and a base production of 2 (1 from the city tile, 1 from hills/grassland) starting an Obelisk on Turn 1 and building a mine on the hills/grassland).

At Normal Speed:

Turn 1: FW starts a mine.
Turn 2: Regular Worker starts a mine; both 2/30 Obelisk.
Turn 3: Both 4/30 Obelisk.
Turn 4: FW finishes mine; both 6/30 Obelisk.
Turn 5: Regular Worker finishes mine; 10/30 and 8/30 Obelisk.
Turn 6: 14/30 and 12/30 Obelisk (and so on)...
Turn: 10: FW player finishes Obelisk.
Turn 11: Other player finishes Obelisk.
Advantage: 1 turn at +2 production.

At Marathon Speed:

Turn 1: FW starts a mine.
Turn 2: Regular Worker starts a mine; both 2/90.
Turn 3-11: Both +2 per turn, 20/90.
Turn 12: FW finishes mine; both 22/90.
Turn 13: Regular worker finishes mine; 26/90 and 24/90.
Turn 14: 30/90 and 28/90 (and so on)...
Turn 29: FW player finishes Obelisk.
Turn 30: Other player finishes Obelisk.
Advantage: 1 turn at +2 production.

So just how is the FW better at Normal Speed?

 

[Spectrite]

I'll try one last example. To keep it simple, we'll use a city with a 2 population and a base production of 2 (1 from the city tile, 1 from hills/grassland) starting an Obelisk on Turn 1 and building a mine on the hills/grassland).

At Normal Speed:

Turn 1: FW starts a mine.
Turn 2: Regular Worker starts a mine; both 2/30 Obelisk.
Turn 3: Both 4/30 Obelisk.
Turn 4: FW finishes mine; both 6/30 Obelisk.
Turn 5: Regular Worker finishes mine; 10/30 and 8/30 Obelisk.
Turn 6: 14/30 and 12/30 Obelisk (and so on)...
Turn: 10: FW player finishes Obelisk.
Turn 11: Other player finishes Obelisk.
Advantage: 1 turn at +2 production.

At Marathon Speed:

Turn 1: FW starts a mine.
Turn 2: Regular Worker starts a mine; both 2/90.
Turn 3-11: Both +2 per turn, 20/90.
Turn 12: FW finishes mine; both 22/90.
Turn 13: Regular worker finishes mine; 26/90 and 24/90.
Turn 14: 30/90 and 28/90 (and so on)...
Turn 29: FW player finishes Obelisk.
Turn 30: Other player finishes Obelisk.
Advantage: 1 turn at +2 production.

So just how is the FW better at Normal Speed?

At both speeds, you got 1 turn of +2 production. Those turns are not equal, since a turn on Normal is worth more than a turn on Marathon. In order for them to be equal, there would have to be 3 turns of +2 production on Marathon, as 1 turn on Normal = 3 turns on Marathon.

 

[*Svart*]

more simple: if something on normal cost 20 hammers to be built, on marathon it will cost 60. So the benefit of the +2 hammers is 3 time less on marathon. You know... 2 hammers is a relative number.

 

[Xenaphobe]

At both speeds, you got 1 turn of +2 production. Those turns are not equal, since a turn on Normal is worth more than a turn on Marathon.

It's pretty close to equal. The +2 Production in this case (since you built the Obelisk) translates into +1 Culture. At Normal speed this puts you at 22% towards your next border expansion; at Marathon it puts you at 21% towards you next expansion.

Still, that is 1% more, so I'll concede that you are correct: FWs are indeed better at Normal than Marathon.

 

[Spectrite]

more simple: if something on normal cost 20 hammers to be built, on marathon it will cost 60. So the benefit of the +2 hammers is 3 time less on marathon. You know... 2 hammers is a relative number.

This.

It's pretty close to equal. The +2 Production in this case (since you built the Obelisk) translates into +1 Culture. At Normal speed this puts you at 22% towards your next border expansion; at Marathon it puts you at 21% towards you next expansion.

Still, that is 1% more, so I'll concede that you are correct: FWs are indeed better at Normal than Marathon.

22%? 21%? Where do you get those numbers from?