Favorite UU Part I

[Xenaphobe]

22%? 21%? Where do you get those numbers from?

I just make them up, of course.

Seriously though, it's the amount of Culture you would accumulated over those turns: +2 per turn while building (from your Palace), +3 per turn after. So turns 2-9 you'd gain +16, and turns 10-11 you'd gain +6, totally 22 out of the 100 you need to expand (22%). That's at Normal speed. At Marathon: turns 2-28 = +54, and turns 29-30 = +6 for a total of 60 out of the 300 you need (20%). Which is a 2% difference (my culture total was off by +2 the first time).

The % of total turns used is nearly identical, too.

Of course, you'd never start off that way. It's a lot more likely you'd build a Fast Worker first, and then (if possible) use him to chop your next build. In that case, if you have a forest in an adjacent square, +1 movement lets you start chopping that turn. But if the forest is 1 square away, +1 movement doesn't help.

 

[itg]

I just make them up, of course.

Seriously though, it's the amount of Culture you would accumulated over those turns: +2 per turn while building (from your Palace), +3 per turn after. So turns 2-9 you'd gain +16, and turns 10-11 you'd gain +6, totally 22 out of the 100 you need to expand (22%). That's at Normal speed. At Marathon: turns 2-28 = +54, and turns 29-30 = +6 for a total of 60 out of the 300 you need (20%). Which is a 2% difference (my culture total was off by +2 the first time).

The % of total turns used is nearly identical, too.

Of course, you'd never start off that way. It's a lot more likely you'd build a Fast Worker first, and then (if possible) use him to chop your next build. In that case, if you have a forest in an adjacent square, +1 movement lets you start chopping that turn. But if the forest is 1 square away, +1 movement doesn't help.

You don't build monuments for the second border expansion. You build them for the first, which comes at 10 (30 on marathon, I assume). My capitals never get monuments at all unless I'm CHA.

 

[Xenaphobe]

You don't build monuments for the second border expansion

It's just an example, not a suggestion. It doesn't matter what you build.

The only significant factor in determining how much advantage you get from FWs is the terrain.

 

[Ataxerxes]

It's just an example, not a suggestion. It doesn't matter what you build.

The only significant factor in determining how much advantage you get from FWs is the terrain.

Partly true. The more forests and hills, the better FW is. On flat terrain, FW gives almost no bonus. However, the turns saved on forest on hills add up. You save one turn on turn 30, another on 40 and so on, you can save, say, 10 turns per fast worker.

Given that terrain isn't too extreme most of the time, I'm sure almost everyone would agree that game speed is the most significant factor. Given that it takes the worker less time to do his tasks on faster speeds, he saves more turns by not spending a turn moving onto a forests or hills on faster speeds. On marathon, where everything a worker does takes forever, the one turn he saves doesn't mean much.

 

[Xenaphobe]

However, the turns saved on forest on hills add up. You save one turn on turn 30, another on 40 and so on, you can save, say, 10 turns per fast worker.

On marathon, where everything a worker does takes forever, the one turn he saves doesn't mean much.

The turns only add up in theory. In practice, it's doubtful. Workers build improvements a lot faster than your population grows. That gives even regular Workers a vast surplus of turns to build roads in forests you plan to chop, or on hills you plan to mine. So FWs might save you a little micromanagement, but not many turns.

Marathon actually illustrates the relative insignificance of the FW. When it takes 15 turns to build a farm, it's easy to see that 1 turn either way doesn't amount to much. The thing is, even when it takes 7 turns to build a farm, one turn either way still doesn't amount to much--other than you hit "End Turn" less often.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Can someone who knows how to set up a poll do the following

"Is the fast worker less effective the slower the speed ?"

"Is the fast worker in the top 3 UU`s at quick speed ?"

I`m confident I can predict the results

 

[Spectrite]

I just make them up, of course.

Seriously though, it's the amount of Culture you would accumulated over those turns: +2 per turn while building (from your Palace), +3 per turn after. So turns 2-9 you'd gain +16, and turns 10-11 you'd gain +6, totally 22 out of the 100 you need to expand (22%). That's at Normal speed. At Marathon: turns 2-28 = +54, and turns 29-30 = +6 for a total of 60 out of the 300 you need (20%). Which is a 2% difference (my culture total was off by +2 the first time).

The % of total turns used is nearly identical, too.

The reason the difference is so small is because of the questionable strategy involved.

As someone else already pointed out, you're building a monument in your capital, which is already getting culture from the palace. Not only is this a bad idea in-game, the palace's +2 culture also makes the difference appear to be less.

The bigger reason, however, is that for some reason, you are calculating for the second border pop (100 culture) instead of the first (10 culture), and the first border pop is the only reason anyone would ever build monuments. (Again I'm just echoing itg here.)

Let's look at a much more realistic situation: a newly settled city with no culture (it's not the capital, so no palace). Calculating for first border pop (10 culture on Normal, 30 on Marathon).

On Normal, saving 1 turn on a Monument gives you +1 culture (that is, 1 more than you would if you had not had a Fast Worker). That's 10% of culture needed for border pop.

On Marathon, saving 1 turn on a Monument still gives you +1 culture. But it's not 1/10, it's 1/30...only 3.33%.

To put it simply and more generally: A Fast Worker on Normal saves you 3 times as much time (in game speed) than it does on Marathon. This has been proven. What it does with that saved time is up to the situation, but having 3 times as many saved turns is surely significant.

Marathon actually illustrates the relative insignificance of the FW.

Because FW is really quite insignificant on Marathon. On Normal, however, not so much. And on Quick, it's generally accepted as the strongest UU.

 

[Xenaphobe]

As someone else already pointed out, you're building a monument in your capital, which is already getting culture from the palace.

Let's look at a much more realistic situation: a newly settled city with no culture (it's not the capital, so no palace). Calculating for first border pop (10 culture on Normal, 30 on Marathon).

On Normal, saving 1 turn on a Monument gives you +1 culture (that is, 1 more than you would if you had not had a Fast Worker). That's 10% of culture needed for border pop.

On Marathon, saving 1 turn on a Monument still gives you +1 culture. But it's not 1/10, it's 1/30...only 3.33%.

As I said before, I used the Obelisk (Monument for you expansionist types) because it made for the easiest calculation.

Your example is correct: the turn saved building the Monument in a city that isn't producing Culture is worth 3 times as much on Normal. That's the one exception, because there's no cumulative affect to offset the sudden bonus. However, if you build something that boosts an already existing (and accumulating) resource (Library, Market, whatever), the benefit of saving 1 turn should be rather insignificant.

That make sense?

 

[Darth Caesar]

My thread has become a fast worker debate.

 

[Mustakrakish]

My thread has become a fast worker debate.

Xenaphobe is quite... uh... xenophobe towards the fast worker.

 

[Xenaphobe]

And on Quick, it's generally accepted as the strongest UU.

Well, if your combat UU is obsolete before you can build your army and reach the enemy...yeah, I can see FW being the best choice. You''ll at least get something out of it.

 

[Darth Caesar]

Well, if your combat UU is obsolete before you can build your army and reach the enemy...yeah, I can see FW being the best choice. You''ll at least get something out of it.

 

[Xenaphobe]

Xenaphobe is quite... uh... xenophobe towards the fast worker.

Gandhi was the first leader to ever nuke me in Civ1--I haven't liked him since.

 

[Darth Caesar]

Gandhi was the first leader to ever nuke me in Civ1--I haven't liked him since.

 

[Spectrite]

As I said before, I used the Obelisk (Monument for you expansionist types) because it made for the easiest calculation.

Your example is correct: the turn saved building the Monument in a city that isn't producing Culture is worth 3 times as much on Normal. That's the one exception, because there's no cumulative affect to offset the sudden bonus. However, if you build something that boosts an already existing (and accumulating) resource (Library, Market, whatever), the benefit of saving 1 turn should be rather insignificant.

That make sense?

On Quick/Normal, 1 turn can mean a lot. But that's besides the point. I think we can agree that the Fast Worker is better on faster speeds than on slower speeds. In some cases that difference may be big, in other cases it may be insignificant. But the difference is there.

 

[Xenaphobe]

I think we can agree that the Fast Worker is better on faster speeds than on slower speeds.

Yeah, it's better at faster speeds. The combat UUs are a lot more useful at Epic/Marathon, and make for better choices.

 

[plasmacannon]

I think the poll was too shortly lived.
If ran for longer, or open ended, then, a larger sample of people would have voted.
The debate over the unit in the lead right now, wouldn't be here, yet.

 

[lasombra1984]

I'm really surprised that people dislike Cats... After all they are middle-age KillThemAll

 

[sydhe]

I'm really surprised that people dislike Cats... After all they are middle-age KillThemAll

I don't know they dislike them so much as are voting for other things. I voted for them. They're powerful, last a surprisingly long time (until rifling, if I remember) and fast. Great for mowing down enemy stacks.

 

[lasombra1984]

I don't know they dislike them so much as are voting for other things. I voted for them. They're powerful, last a surprisingly long time (until rifling, if I remember) and fast. Great for mowing down enemy stacks.

Single problem with Cats is upgrading.
Horse Archer to Knight is very expensive, unlike Knight to Cuirassier. Spain gets army of UU quicker)