Favorite Wonder -Modern

[cliff]

OK, my mistake about those 2 shields instead of five. I thought that the power plants added 50% to the factory and mfg plant production respectively, making it 100% in total.

So, for a city producing 10 shields it's
base 10
factory 5
mfg plant 5
power plant 5 even with factory only

I thought the common use of the dam was to build factories first as soon as they are available and then to build the dam fast as well. From your post it appears that you would build the dam first and then later, maybe much later, build factories and perhaps mfg plants to get highly productive cities at the end of the game.

That sounds like a good strategy - but is it really necessary? I have never been in a situation where I needed 40-60 monster cities to conquer the world. If you have that many cities you must occupy half of the world or so, right? So... my simple question is - is it at all possible to lose in that situation? I find it hard to believe.

What would happen if you started building military units instead of hoover dam and factories? After all, 40 factories cost 8000 shields. For that amount you can build 100 stealth fighters. Isn't that enough?

My main point here is that the hoover dam is nice to have, but it isn't really necessary. It's overkill. Just like seti by the way like kmad said.

 

[starlifter]

I thought the common use of the dam was to build factories first as soon as they are available and then to build the dam fast as well. From your post it appears that you would build the dam first and then later, maybe much later, build factories and perhaps mfg plants to get highly productive cities at the end of the game.

Like you, I think factories are not worth their keep in all cities.... esp. before Hoover Dam & it's ability to control pollution.

Before HD, factories only improve shields by 50%, unless you build Power Plants (but then no anti-pollution, plus time and expense). Refining is typically available at the same time as Electronics, and research is often one advance per day anyway at that point in the game, so the appeal of a PP is even lower to me personally.

Typically, I start some key city Factories when I start researching (or discover) Electronics, and build the Hoover Dam on the next turn, when my Rush Built Factories come on line.

Some cities never get a factory, as it just does not pay... those cities just produce economically, and since freght is worth typically from 600 to 3,000 gold by that point, the little cities just get freight rushed for about 120 gold or so. Plus other units, like spies.

What would happen if you started building military units instead of hoover dam and factories? After all, 40 factories cost 8000 shields. For that amount you can build 100 stealth fighters. Isn't that enough?

You do indeed need several evvective turns of shield output (e.g., a city of 40s, 50s, 54s, 60s, and/or 80s) to make a factory cost worthwhile.

The Anti-pollution benefit of Hoover Dam is, by itself, enough justification for me to build it. The AI never pollutes anyway (except by its nukes), but the Human does, so HD is of greater benefit to humans (like many wonders are).

The consideration of Hoover should be the way the game is going at Electronics... if the game is effectively done, and will end in a few turns, Factories will not pay for themselves. But Hoover will still net you 20 points, if score is a consideration.

About factories in general, the commitment to use a factory in a Full Game (e.g., the game having siginificant AI resistance until well after the Tech Tree is done) carries even more expense than you have argued so far:

1. Factory (200 Shields)
2. Mass Transit (160s)
3. [often] Offshore Platform (160s)
4. [often] Recycling Center (200s)
5. [sometimes] Solar Plant (320s)
6. [often] Manufacturing Plant (320s)

This is my determining consideration in whether or not a city gets to become a producer of shields, coupled with how long the game will continue. This is all high cost, and if a city won't return it, then the "Gold Factory" is used... e.g., the gold from trade is used to build, not the shields from a factory .

But no matter which way it goes, Hoover Dam is important. However, if teh Ai is controlled, and production can be delayed (usually a growth cycle), I do sometimes build the Cure For Cancer first, in order to generate more gold by dropping the Lux, inc. tax, and avoiding rush builds of Courthouses for a while.

 

[cliff]

Well.. let me guess...
You are fond of early modernization, right? In theory I am too, but I just don't take the time to build all those improvements
I like to settle on new islands and continents first, that's my top priority. When electronics is about to be researched, all my cities but the science city are size 8 or smaller. I haven't had the time to build aqueducts yet. Or I haven't taken the time rather.

But hey, what's that 600-3000 gold for a caravan from a small city late in the game? I have never seen that! Where do you typically deliver this caravan? To a big city of your own or a distant enemy city?

Anyway, I have an ongoing game in which I am approaching the industrial era. I will try "your" strategy as I understand it and see how it goes!

 

[starlifter]

I like to settle on new islands and continents first, that's my top priority. When electronics is about to be researched, all my cities but the science city are size 8 or smaller. I haven't had the time to build aqueducts yet. Or I haven't taken the time rather.

The Hoover Dam is an inportant focal point in most of my games, as it marks the dawn of the really high demand for gold. The game is drawing to an end, so things must be built quick, and the factory is often the first of the expensive imporvements. That's part of why the HD is my favorite late game wonder.

My cities are all expected to grow and not doddle around after Corporation or so. I'll almost alwyas have some size 16 to 25 cities to serve as trade partners and generate gold.


The big trade comes from shipping demanded cargo to faraway AI cities before Flight. After flight, no trade is allowed.... unless both cities have Superhighways and especially Airports.

600 gold is easy on almost any map. 1500g is average on a medium map, and 2000-3000 is expected (I insist on it) on a large map. This is all highly dependent on how one sets up trade, and if one gifts the Key Civ. The closer the Key Civ is to you in science, the lower you max deliveries will be (the 2/3rds rule). Top deliveries in late game can top 4,000 if I'm not gifting the key civ.

 

[cliff]

It would be interesting to compare some of our games. I'm interested in your late and mid-game strategy.

Could you give me an example of how you develop an ordinary non-ssc city? In which order do you build city improvements? In approximately what years?

I play like this:
Early, I build caravans to help with happiness wonders. No city improvements at this time. First building is usually a marketplace. While they are being built I let settlers improve the land. Once MC is built I will switch to republic and celebrate SSC to size 12. Now it's usually between 1AD and 500AD.

After this, it's time to modernize. First step is to establish trade routes. I will use maximum taxes and rush caravans for this. Next up is a bank so that I will get even more tax income. They are also rushed. Next up is colloseum, aqueduct and for coastal cities a harbor. These are also rushed as soon as possible. I will use 30% or so luxuries so that all cities celebrate and the rest is used for taxes.

When there is enough food to get past 12 i will rush a sewer.

This is what happens when I actually modernize. In some games I switch to fundamentalism and conquer the world with cavalry instead.

I'm interested in when you build factories. Before sewers? Colloseums? Or directly after sewers? A similar strategy to mine in the case, except that I more or less stop building after sewers.

 

[starlifter]

Could you give me an example of how you develop an ordinary non-ssc city? In which order do you build city improvements? In approximately what years?

My Core cities are developed as soon as possible. They are typically held to size 12 until I have enough regular gold income to let them got up to about 18-20 with a Sewer, Colosseum, Bank/SE, and trade routes with the fully roaded size 20+ SSC. Pay close attention to the road situation to each individual core city, as the 50% trade bonuses depends on it, not to mention slight reduction in corruption.

Cities outside the core are more difficult for a Republic to force grow, due to corruption. Cities typically get: Temple, Courthouse, Marketplace, Harbor, Aquaduct, Bank to reach size 12, though only 1st 5 are automatic. Trade routes (prefer roaded) are often essential to keep 50% happy citizens without pushing 60% or more slider Luxuries. Hanging Gardens makes it much easier for growth (e.g., you can set much lower Slider luxuries.).

When there is enough food to get past 12 i will rush a sewer.

The SSC gets the 1st sewer in most cases... other cities get one also, but only when I can afford the other stuff like full trade routes, colosseums, SE.

I'm interested in when you build factories. Before sewers? Colloseums? Or directly after sewers? A similar strategy to mine in the case, except that I more or less stop building after sewers.

Depends on base shields of a city. With Hoover Dam and 10 base shields, and unbuilt Women's Sufferage, a factory can greatly help pay for itself by PRB improvements. Some cities can generate 20 shields (base) by size 11 or 12; in these cases, they defiintely get a factory, and I PRB to Sewer, then switch to SE, Airport, Mass Transit. This saves 80 gold each time, and pays for the factory. The SHs and RCs are similarly PRB'd off any convenient 160s improvement, even University (I never build non-SSC Universities, as they are not worth it.... so the 160s is available after Library).

In late game (after about Corporation), cities are all expected to grow continiously (e.g., on pop point each and every turn), and so fast growitn cities do not get Offshore and Factories until about size 16 or more, due to the need for supermarkets, harbor, market, bank, aquaduct, temple, sewer, courthouse, colosseum, SE, mass transit. Cities get an improvement every other turn, and sometimes a freight or two wedged in during early growth.

If you look at the GOTMs, I pretty much follow that strategy even in non-GOTM games. GOTMs, however, do emphasize speed.

 

[duke o' york]

Originally posted by starlifter:
Remember, late game gold is cheap to create... 50 shields can be turned into as much as 4,000 gold and 4,000 science on the same turn as the Freight is produced, though payoffs of 800 to 1,600 are more common.

This is rare indeed, and I can only think of one possible way to achieve this with a huge pay-off. That would be to get the freight to a harbour city on the rails and put it to sleep. Then activate a transport in the harbour city and move it to another harbour on a differnet continent but within the range of the transport. This will give you a big bonus for the change of continent. You can then activate the freight and use the railroads to move it into a high trade city on the new continent. With an airport, SH and other trade improvements in both cities and a demanded commodity in the freight (usually uranium, coal or oil for 4,000+ pay-offs) then you will get a large amount of cash and beakers. Otherwise, if you use the airlift you'll have to wait a turn and you won't get as large a bonus if both cities are on the same landmass. Is this what you had in mind when you wrote the above? I can't think of any other way to get big money on the same turn.

 

[starlifter]

You pretty much hit a lot of it, but that alone is not enough to get 4,000. The "hard" part is the 2/3 rule. Your payoff is truncated to 2/3 of teh value of the current science you are researching. So for a 4,000 payoff, you need to have a science cost of 6,000 or more, which meant late game and likely in the FT range, with a stunted (e.g., non-gifted key civ).

The other hard part is a suitable trade city. It needs to be AI, high trade (Republic or Democracy), great distance, with Superhighways and an Airport. Such cities are spared in my own games, as they are too valuable for trade to conquer (at least until the very "end").

As far as the same turn aspect, you need only have a ship chain set up from your producing city. In my empires (non-GOTM), I typrically have every city "online", meaning connected by rail. If a very valuable late game commodity, like Oil or Uranium, is produced, it gets special treatment.

The aspect ratio of the map, and city locations can influnce the distance factor, which when combined with overseas, foriegn, airports, superhighways, democracies, high trade squares, and demanded high value cargo can easily top 3,000 (science cap permitting), and with care can top 4,000. I've never hit 5,000, but suppose even that could be possible if the key civ is really really stunted in the science dept.!

 

[Andu Indorin]

Hoover Dam had long occupied one of the spots on my "Top Three Wonder" list. But then I discovered that -- thanks to a bug in the U.N. subroutine -- I could use the U.N. to prolong war as a Democracy. Over the course of five seperate games, thanks to the "Emissary's Ploy," I managed to conquer over 200 AI cities as Power Democracy without the infernal Senate interferring with the extension of my will upon my enemies.

That said, the U.N. can be used such that the more "militant" but less economically governments (i.e., Communism and Fundamentalism) are no longer necessary in games that I play. And by running rush-built Freight into the AI's most valuable cities just prior to their conquest, my hegemonic wars also become wars of vast economic windfall profits.

Yes, I still love Hoover, because Engineers were not made for cleaning up pollution. But the U.N. now occupies a distinguished spot in my Top Three Wonders list.

 

[Marlos]

Originally posted by Andu Indorin
...then I discovered that -- thanks to a bug in the U.N. subroutine -- I could use the U.N. to prolong war as a Democracy. Over the course of five seperate games, thanks to the "Emissary's Ploy," I managed to conquer over 200 AI cities as Power Democracy without the infernal Senate interferring with the extension of my will upon my enemies.

Andu, could you explain this "bug", since I am a proponent of PD? I would appreciate it.

 

[starlifter]

I don't know about a bug (e.g., I haven't noticied whatever it is), but I actually don't find waging war under Democracy to be a problem, even without the UN. Sure, you can't demand tribute, and have to plan ahead a little more than in say, Fundy.

I play MGE, deity, and keep a spotless record. The senate will support you even without the UN, if you are willing to get stabbed in the back a few times while gearing up for war.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Marlos


Andu, could you explain this "bug", since I am a proponent of PD? I would appreciate it.

The "Emissary's Ploy"

As everyone knows: When you have just conquered an AI city as a Democracy; and when you next make contact between land units with the AI civ; the AI will offer a Cease Fire. If you refuse their peace overture, the Senate is then consulted and may, in their infinite wisdom, negotiate a Cease Fire and/or Peace Treaty behind your back. The "Emissary's Ploy" allows you to circumvent this normal diplomatic procedure, as long as you have the United Nations. Whenever you conquer an AI city (and just after exiting that city's City Screen), IMMEDIATELY access the Foreign Adviser window (F3) and send an emissary to the aggrieved party. They will respond: "You have wasted enough of our valuable time with your endless chatter. Now begone." Then, the next time you make contact between opposing land units, the AI will not make its traditional peace overture, and therefore, your Senate will not be consulted. Repeat as necessary with every AI city that you capture.

Note that to use this ploy, NO enemy units can be allowed next to the captured city following its conquest. Any units not supported by the captured city must be eliminated. Here the use of Spies, with their 2-square range of vision, are useful in determining the presence of adjacent units; and by investigating the city and its support map, they can help determine if such adjacent units will be eliminated during the capture of that city.

If you are not planning to capture any cities on a given turn but wish to continue the war, it is always a good idea to destroy one of their units and then send an emissary; this will usually keep the AI civ appropriately Enraged, allowing you to go about your military affairs without undue Senate interference.

I speculate that this is a subroutine of the U.N. (and probably the Great Wall) designed for the following circumstance: You have just captured an enemy city, but you've burned out all of your military units in the process. You desperately want breathing space to avoid an enemy counterattack. You've got the U.N., so you figure, "I can force a peace settlement." You send the emissary and lo! the aggrieved ruler responds "Enough ... Begone!" This allows the AI at least a one-turn opening to recapture its lost property. (Or, alternatively, the subroutine may have been retrofitted into Classic from the Multiplayer version.) At any rate, the "Emissary's Ploy" essentially turns this intent on its head.

Note that -- apparently -- the "Emissary's Ploy" is not foolproof. But at present, with Civ2 Classic 2.42, I've achieved a success ratio of around 99.5%. And by extending the duration of my wars of global conquest as a Power Democracy, I am able to achieve quite the profit margin sending Freight into cities "to be captured" with a comparatively minimal military effort.

And, as a reminder: once an AI civ develops Communism, its captured cities will start spawning Partisans; therefore, to use the "Emissary's Ploy," it is necessary to "quarantine" cities to be captured by land units by occupying every land square adjacent to intended target before the capture in order to avoid contact between opposing land units. Spies and Stealth Fighters are the best for such quarantine operations. An example of the "Emissary's Ploy" and quarantine operations can be found in my assault upon the Indian Civilization in
Classic Britannia game from last fall.

Edit of 7/19/02: Clarifications added

 

[Old n Slow]

Another vote for Hoover.

I once played an OCC at King level and watched my small SS overtaken by the ai Hoover produced model. A couple of OCC (King level again) games later I couldn't help myself. I put Hoover in my one city. (and won).

 

[starlifter]

... Emissary's Ploy ... This allows the AI at least a one-turn opening to recapture its lost property.

A fine piece of investigative work, Andu . The reason seems sound. I've never noticed it before, but there are definitely several bug in the Diplomatic screen part of the game code. For instance, it is totally impossible to successfully swap for the advance of Monarchy to any civ in my GOTM 18. Attempts to do so will result in apparant success, but after each "swap" the AI still does cough it up, yet it takes it's chosen advance from my civ, and offers more swap "opportunities". Also, the AI can ask you for an advance that you just gifted to it (without closing the Diplomatic screen). For example, you gift Iron Working, then request an alliance, and it can demand Iron Working (which it now HAS) to complete the deal, LOL.

Personally, I still have a full military system for dealing with the AI in MGE, and enjoy large scale combat maneuvers and the planning to make it work. I love it when the Hawks support me, even without the UN. Fo me personally, Democracy just isn't Democracy if I don't get to convince those Hawks to come help me .

I'll try your Emissary's Ploy technique in MGE sometime to see if it works in MGE (guess=yes).

Would you like some of your discoveries and terms added to the list that I maintain here?

If so, just make a post there with a short summary (definition) of things like "Emissary's Ploy" and "Modernization" and the triads, etc.

Spies and Stealth Fighters are the best for such quarantine operations.

I use Freight, engineers, Alpines, and Mech Inf, too. The fighters occupy 2+ turn terrain; the land units are put to sleep to avoid contact. All cities to be captured on one turn are carefully planned for order of capture, and any face to fact meeing is avoided by killing AI units, if a re-shuffle of Partisan Suppression units is done (esp. if hte area is RR'd).

 

[Ace]

Originally posted by starlifter

... For instance, it is totally impossible to successfully swap for the advance of Monarchy to any civ in my GOTM 18. Attempts to do so will result in apparant success, but after each "swap" the AI still does cough it up, yet it takes it's chosen advance from my civ, and offers more swap "opportunities".


That is a result of the scenerio forcing you to plan as fundy. You cannot swap any other gov type with the AI either. Nor can you "take" a government type when you capture a city. Apparently, its unique to the GOTM 18 scenerio.

 

[Ace]

By Andu : Note that -- apparently -- the "Emissary's Ploy" is not foolproof. But at present, with Civ2 Classic 2.42, I've achieved a success ratio of around 99.5%.

Unfortunately, it does not work in MGE. I just tested it by capturing a city, and by bribing a city, and in both cases, I was unable to activate the F3 key with the city screen open. Its strange, you can activate F3 with the city screen open when you are just in the city, but not after taking the city.

 

[starlifter]

That is a result of the scenerio forcing you to plan as fundy. You cannot swap any other gov type with the AI either. Nor can you "take" a government type when you capture a city. Apparently, its unique to the GOTM 18 scenerio.

Ahaa!! So that's what caused it. I'd never seen it before, and I'm not real knowledgeable about scenario-specific stuff. I never noticed the Capture issue, as I did divert some caravnas and research Monarchy on my own, to get to Feudalism.

 

[starlifter]

by Andu:

Whenever you conquer an AI city, IMMEDIATELY access the Foreign Adviser window (F3) and send an emissary to the aggrieved party. They will respond: "You have wasted enough of our valuable time with your endless chatter. Now begone." Then, the next time you make contact between opposing land units, the AI will not make its traditional peace overture, and therefore, your Senate will not be consulted. Repeat as necessary with every AI city that you capture.

by Ace:

By Andu : Note that -- apparently -- the "Emissary's Ploy" is not foolproof. But at present, with Civ2 Classic 2.42, I've achieved a success ratio of around 99.5%.

by Ace: Unfortunately, it does not work in MGE. I just tested it by capturing a city, and by bribing a city, and in both cases, I was unable to activate the F3 key with the city screen open. Its strange, you can activate F3 with the city screen open when you are just in the city, but not after taking the city.

OK, I've sat down and tested in in MGE, and Ace is correct.... the "Emissary Ploy" does not work in MGE (5.4.0f). The response from the game is to "Close the City Window" before anything further. Evidently, they noticed it and considered it a bug.

Further update. Even 2.42 will not do it. I am using the 2.42 from Cedric Greene's patch, and it behaves just as MGE.

My steps:

1. Possess the UN.
2. Capture an AI city.
3. Immediately press F3 (no effect--- the plundered gold is onscreen)
4. Close the Plundered Gold popup.
5. The City Status screen pop up.
6. F3 results in a popup telling me "You must close the City Status before the game can proceed."
7. Immediately after closing the screen, face-to-face contact with a nearby AI unit instantly results in the AI-demanded Diplomacy Screeen, and then the Senate does its usual job of forcing Ceace Fire/Peace.


This sequence of events is the same for both 2.42 and 5.4.0f (Classic and MGE).


So I can't verify it, unless I'm missing a step somewhere. But I did research it, and could not find that specific issue addrssed in a patch, though several fixes were close (dealing with the Diplomacy, contact, offers, etc.).

Well, no worries, as I don't plan to use it myself. If I'm doing something wrong, and/or others besides Andu can get it to work, please post .

 

[funxus]

To me it seems you have to capture the city, get to the cityscreen. Press exit and then F3. You have to make sure there are no units around the city that can talk to you right after the city is captured, and before you press F3.

 

[Andu Indorin]

By way of clarification: Funxus is more or less correct. Access the Foreign Advisor screen as soon as it is available (i.e., after "plunder" and the City Screen is closed). THEN send the emisarry to your AI antagonist.

And to emphasize, there cannot be an enemy unit adjacent to the captured city, as this will immediately bring up a peace offer from your antagonist. Hence, a spy is almost necessary to use the ploy so as to make sure there are no units hovering around on the far side of a city; if so, they must be destroyed if they are not based out of the captured city.