Favorite World Wonder ideas

[Thalassicus]

I agree the Panama Canal is tricky from a realism perspective, but many people clearly find it a fun and exciting idea. I think the positives will outweigh the downsides.

I'd be okay with omitting the Nazca Lines world wonder, and only having the Holy Palace national wonder.

This is stuff that's going to get outright added to the mod, so it should pass through rather stringent "quality control".

As you know I generally prefer to change similar stuff already in the game (nuke defense on Military Base) instead of adding new stuff (bomb shelter). This is why I suggested Panama/Hollywood replace Neuschwanstein/Louvre, so we add fewer new wonders. I actually dropped that idea because of Mitsho's comment, which appeared to be an objection... but apparently was not, so I'll go back to the original Louvre->Hollywood idea.

Now that we've mostly decided on the overall concept for each wonder, let's figure out more specifics. Edit: moved to the Part 3 thread.

 

[rhammer640]

I think panama canal should have restrictions on where it can be built if added. Like a city in the middle of plains shouldn't be able to build it. Maybe within 2 tiles of ocean and river?

 

[Thalassicus]

As people pointed out earlier it's important to consider the symbolism of each wonder, in addition to its intrinsic physical meaning.

• The Big Ben clock tower would not realistically provide a global economic bonus. However, it symbolically represents the economy of 1800's England.
• The Panama Canal would realistically exist on an isthmus. It symbolically represents the economic expansion and naval power of the 1900's United States. A coastal requirement should be sufficient to represent that. (From a practical standpoint, the only requirements we can do with our modding tools are requirements that already exist on other wonders.)

 

[mystikx21]

As people pointed out earlier it's important to consider the symbolism of each wonder, in addition to its intrinsic physical meaning.

• The Big Ben clock tower would not realistically provide a global economic bonus. However, it symbolically represents the economy of 1800's England.
• The Panama Canal would realistically exist on an isthmus. It symbolically represents the economic expansion and naval power of the 1900's United States. A coastal requirement should be sufficient to represent that. (From a practical standpoint, the only requirements we can do with our modding tools are requirements that already exist on other wonders.)

This is probably fine from my view. I had fewer strigent objections though.

Liabela might matter how early it comes tech wise if that's all it did was the GP. It could also add a free cathedral for instance. (As with wat adding a free pagoda).

 

[Thalassicus]

Let's discuss bonuses and placement for each wonder in the thread New Wonders: Part 3.

 

[mitsho]

As you know I generally prefer to change similar stuff already in the game (nuke defense on Military Base) instead of adding new stuff (bomb shelter). This is why I suggested Panama/Hollywood replace Neuschwanstein/Louvre, so we add fewer new wonders. I actually dropped that idea because of Mitsho's comment, which appeared to be an objection... but apparently was not, so I'll go back to the original Louvre->Hollywood idea.

I love when I create mischief

With or without the louvre = elite culture comment, I would have stayed with my comment for gameplay there. And let's be realistic, even if my comment was not totally serious, there will be comments calling into question Hollywoods worth as a wonder. As I remember, there were threads like this even in the Civ4 forum which then grew into total flamewars and eventually ended in a heated debate on wether America deserves to be a civ in civ due to its age. It's near as bad as when you bring up Poland as a civ or ask wether that certain country is in Central Europe or not.

Going back to gameplay though, I've always found Louvre's 2 free artist effect a bit boring as it's just more culture or more culture and a Golden Age or 2 Golden Ages. And if we want to cut back Europe's Wonders then the Eiffel Tower seems much more worthy for the French place. period. (Where it compares to Hollywood I guess is a totally different question and not one actually worth exploring as you are comparing apples and oranges there).

But I promise I will from now on always write directly in this forum Sorry for that.

As for the Panama Canal, many wonders are not really in-city even now. Stonehenge for example, the Pyramids, Macchu Picchu (somehow since it's a city on its own), the Nazca Lines, Lalibela (didn't check that one up... hope I'm correct), the Terracotta Army, Himeji Castle and I could go on. So why is it strange to build Panama in a city? Is it because it most probably will not be on an Isthmus? I give you that, but again, many wonders don't make sense in their placement probably. If we accept that wonders mostly represent ideas and specific historic events/developments, then Panama still make sense. Otherwise just imagine it as some sort of large river-country canal-system like the Emperor's Canal or Nord-Ostsee-Kanal.

 

[Thalassicus]

You make a good point that most wonders are built somewhere outside a city, instead of within the city itself.

 

[mitsho]

So that means my other points are crap?

EDIT: Oh dam, two posts and I already ruined my promise from above , time to go to bed and leave the beer alone

 

[Thalassicus]

Oh, I agree with the rest, but wanted to emphasize your new realism point since it had not been brought up before.

 

[Ahriman]

You make a good point that most wonders are built somewhere outside a city, instead of within the city itself.

I don't find this significant at all sorry. The vast majority of wonders are just structures; it doesn't really matter where they are. Their geography isn't an important feature. They could be in a city, in the hinterland, whatever.

Panama canal is not like that. The only reason why it was such a big deal is because of the particular geographic accident that means we have two large continents connected by a narrow isthmus. There are many canals in the world, but Suez and Panama are most important by far because of that feature.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

exactly that: all the other wonders could have been built pretty much anywhere, but a Canal by definition connects two large bodies of water. you can't just plop it down in a random coastal city and say "it's symbolic so it doesn't matter" , you could have just chosen a more fitting wonder to add in its place.

I'm sure somebody can come up with a WW that fits that trade-route boosting effect pretty easily

 

[mitsho]

That was my second point. I was asking wether the problem was that it's not in a city or that it needs specific circumstances to work. The first point is adressed by the fact that other wonders aren't in the city either. The other point is adressed by the fact imho that the effect don't match up with wonders in a lot of cases. Many wonders need specific circumstances to make sense to be built. Or how could a Republic (Liberty Tree) build giant gravebuildings (Pyramids)? Shouldn't we require a Monarchy there? Does the Statue of Liberty make sense to be built in a Communistic or Fascistic Empire? Do I really need to build a giant wall circling my empire (or wouldn't the Northern border make more sense? If you can't accept that argument, simply interpret the Panama Canal as a Canal System for your empire, like referenced above We have to do bigger leaps of understanding in civ5 imho...

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

what I'm saying is that, if the wonder requires a bigger than usual amount of rationalization amount on the player part, why not simply pick another wonder that doesn't have this issue?

 

[mitsho]

Because it has an already made splashscreen and apparently in-game model? Also, I think it's more wonderous (the infamous very subjective wow-factor) than the other options? This is also shown by the amount of votes it got. Which other options btw? I guess, the Burj Khalifa could work, but then there's the question wether we need that effect on a wonder anyways, as it's not a unique effect (like the better missionaries on Djenne for example).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

can you confirm there's already art for the Canal available? if so yes, that would be a point towards inclusion.

 

[mitsho]

Here's the Panama Canal Wonder Splash (effects not those intended by Firaxis):

And here's Three Gorges/Itaipu:

I'm not sure about the ingame on-map models though.

 

[Ahriman]

Nice. Do they have a sound recording of the quote?

 

[sukritact]

Nice. Do they have a sound recording of the quote?

I found the recording for the Three Gorges (different from the one shown BTW), but not one for the Panama Canal.

 

[Thalassicus]

The resources and money for the canal were organized in the city we construct the wonder, while it was built somewhere else on the continent. Problem solved! Let's move on to more important topics.