Feedback: Pacing and Progression

[Xyth]

In HR there are 140 techs and in BTS there are around 90. I've made a lot of effort so that overall tech costs have increased by a similar proportion to the increase in number of techs. In a nutshell, History Rewritten is roughly 1.5x longer than BTS in terms of both number of techs and cost of techs.

Furthermore, in BTS the earlier eras are a lot shorter than the later eras, while in HR the eras are intended to be more evenly spaced.

Because of all this, the calendar (which hasn't changed from BTS yet ) has obviously become quite out of sync with the eras and that's something I want to start looking at for the next version. It's a tricky task with a lot of other factors to consider (number of turns, tech costs, amount of commerce/research available, etc).

I'd really appreciate if people could post the following information about recent games you've played (complete or incomplete) to help me make the right adjustments:

• Gamespeed:
• Maptype:
• Mapsize:
• Year when game ended:
• Your most advanced tech:
• AI's most advanced tech:
• Victory Type:

Did research feel too slow or too fast in any eras in particular?

What year (roughly) did you advance to each era?

Thanks!

 

[tchristensen]

I noticed in last night's game that the AI was not particularly doing well at utilizing resources. I found several of their cities with resources 1 square from their cities completely undeveloped? Stone, Copper, Gains all untapped yet their cities were very large.

I have not seen this in other mods and wonder if something has changed in HR?

 

[tchristensen]

AI do not seem to be as vicious in HR or bloodthirsty?

Do you recommend playing the game on Aggressive AI? I know that in some mods that setting actually makes them more passive.

Also, wondering how radically different Noble and Prince levels are. If I play on Prince would that make for a bit more difficult game without making it ridiculously difficult?

 

[Simon_Jester]

I've seen amphibious invasions without provocation from an AI civilization on Prince level, though Tin Hinan is supposed to be pretty aggressive I guess.

The invasion didn't work, mind you, but she did succeed in capturing an underprotected coastal city and probably would have accomplished more if I hadn't already had a solid, battle-hardened army from conquering the other civilization on my continent.

 

[Xyth]

AI do not seem to be as vicious in HR or bloodthirsty?

Do you recommend playing the game on Aggressive AI? I know that in some mods that setting actually makes them more passive.

Also, wondering how radically different Noble and Prince levels are. If I play on Prince would that make for a bit more difficult game without making it ridiculously difficult?

I've seen amphibious invasions without provocation from an AI civilization on Prince level, though Tin Hinan is supposed to be pretty aggressive I guess.

The invasion didn't work, mind you, but she did succeed in capturing an underprotected coastal city and probably would have accomplished more if I hadn't already had a solid, battle-hardened army from conquering the other civilization on my continent.

It depends mostly on which leaders you are up against. Some are more aggressive than others, with different types of things that upset them. I've not made any changes to the Aggressive AI option so it should work as you expect.

As for difficulty levels, I've made minimal changes to them. One thing to note is that I'd neglected to update the free techs the AI gets on higher difficulty levels for a few versions now. This is rectified in 0.9.6.

Prince should be reasonable compared to Noble. It's only at Monarch and above where the AI start to get serious advantages over the player.

 

[tchristensen]

I have always thought that the difficulty level is for the player and that the AI always stays at Noble? Is it not that as the difficulty rises that it becomes more difficult for the civilization? So to give the AI a break you should decrease their difficulty level?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Each difficulty level corresponds to a set of bonuses or penalties to AI production, research, and other things. There may be some other differences between the levels, I suspect the obvious one is the hostility of AI nations and the probability of unprovoked attacks, but that's the main one.

It is not the case that "I play at Noble, therefore tthe computer plays at Monarch." The computer's bonuses and weaknesses are set by your choice of difficulty level. However, the AI doesn't necessarily behave differently at higher levels; it just has more of the same things it threw at you at low levels.

 

[tchristensen]

Each difficulty level corresponds to a set of bonuses or penalties to AI production, research, and other things. There may be some other differences between the levels, I suspect the obvious one is the hostility of AI nations and the probability of unprovoked attacks, but that's the main one.

It is not the case that "I play at Noble, therefore tthe computer plays at Monarch." The computer's bonuses and weaknesses are set by your choice of difficulty level. However, the AI doesn't necessarily behave differently at higher levels; it just has more of the same things it threw at you at low levels.

There is some confusion here. One does not make the AI stronger by elevating the Difficulty level. Rather to make the AI stronger, you would decrease their Difficulty Level or correspondingly raise the player's Difficulty level.

The AI Difficulty level is set in the mod preferences and not cannot be modified per game.

<Define>
<DefineName>STANDARD_HANDICAP</DefineName>
<DefineTextVal>HANDICAP_NOBLE</DefineTextVal>
</Define>

Players can make the game harder for themselves by playing on something higher than Noble, but that does not change how the AI plays the game -- it just makes it more difficult for the player. So, if a player elects Prince difficulty, it has no bearing on how the AI plays the game, but rather just how difficult the Player's development time is.

 

[Xyth]

I have always thought that the difficulty level is for the player and that the AI always stays at Noble? Is it not that as the difficulty rises that it becomes more difficult for the civilization? So to give the AI a break you should decrease their difficulty level?

Nope, the player chooses the difficulty level and it has defined settings that can make things harder or easier for either the player or the AI (or both). For example, here are the current settings for Monarch:

		<HandicapInfo>
			<Type>HANDICAP_MONARCH</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_MONARCH</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_MONARCH_HELP</Help>
			<iFreeWinsVsBarbs>0</iFreeWinsVsBarbs>
			<iAnimalAttackProb>90</iAnimalAttackProb>
			<iStartingLocPercent>60</iStartingLocPercent>
			<iAdvancedStartPointsMod>90</iAdvancedStartPointsMod>
			<iGold>0</iGold>
			<iFreeUnits>4</iFreeUnits>
			<iUnitCostPercent>70</iUnitCostPercent>
			<iResearchPercent>115</iResearchPercent>
			<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>90</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
			<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>85</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
			<iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>6</iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>
			<iColonyMaintenancePercent>120</iColonyMaintenancePercent>
			<iMaxColonyMaintenance>200</iMaxColonyMaintenance>
			<iCorporationMaintenancePercent>120</iCorporationMaintenancePercent>
			<iCivicUpkeepPercent>95</iCivicUpkeepPercent>
			<iInflationPercent>100</iInflationPercent>
			<iHealthBonus>2</iHealthBonus>
			<iHappyBonus>4</iHappyBonus>
			<iAttitudeChange>-1</iAttitudeChange>
			<iNoTechTradeModifier>50</iNoTechTradeModifier>
			<iTechTradeKnownModifier>0</iTechTradeKnownModifier>
			<iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>35</iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>
			<iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>40</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
			<iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>400</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
			<iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>110</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>
			<iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed>25</iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed>
			<iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed>30</iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed>
			<iBarbarianCityCreationProb>7</iBarbarianCityCreationProb>
			<iAnimalBonus>-20</iAnimalBonus>
			<iBarbarianBonus>0</iBarbarianBonus>
			<iAIAnimalBonus>-40</iAIAnimalBonus>
			<iAIBarbarianBonus>-25</iAIBarbarianBonus>
			<iStartingDefenseUnits>0</iStartingDefenseUnits>
			<iStartingWorkerUnits>0</iStartingWorkerUnits>
			<iStartingExploreUnits>0</iStartingExploreUnits>
			<iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>0</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
			<iAIStartingDefenseUnits>1</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
			<iAIStartingWorkerUnits>0</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
			<iAIStartingExploreUnits>0</iAIStartingExploreUnits>
			<iBarbarianDefenders>3</iBarbarianDefenders>
			<iAIDeclareWarProb>100</iAIDeclareWarProb>
			<iAIWorkRateModifier>20</iAIWorkRateModifier>
			<iAIGrowthPercent>95</iAIGrowthPercent>
			<iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
			<iAIWorldTrainPercent>100</iAIWorldTrainPercent>
			<iAIConstructPercent>90</iAIConstructPercent>
			<iAIWorldConstructPercent>100</iAIWorldConstructPercent>
			<iAICreatePercent>90</iAICreatePercent>
			<iAIWorldCreatePercent>100</iAIWorldCreatePercent>
			<iAICivicUpkeepPercent>90</iAICivicUpkeepPercent>
			<iAIUnitCostPercent>90</iAIUnitCostPercent>
			<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
			<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>50</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
			<iAIInflationPercent>80</iAIInflationPercent>
			<iAIWarWearinessPercent>75</iAIWarWearinessPercent>
			<iAIPerEraModifier>-2</iAIPerEraModifier>
			<iAIAdvancedStartPercent>120</iAIAdvancedStartPercent>
			<Goodies>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_HIGH_GOLD</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_MAP</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_MAP</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_WARRIOR</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_WARRIOR</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_SCOUT</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_EXPERIENCE</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_EXPERIENCE</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_HEALING</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_TECH</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_TECH</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
				<GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
			</Goodies>
			<FreeTechs/>
			<AIFreeTechs>
				<FreeTech>
					<TechType>TECH_HUNTING</TechType>
					<bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
				</FreeTech>
				<FreeTech>
					<TechType>TECH_CARVING</TechType>
					<bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
				</FreeTech>
				<FreeTech>
					<TechType>TECH_CEREMONIAL_BURIAL</TechType>
					<bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
				</FreeTech>
				<FreeTech>
					<TechType>TECH_FISHING</TechType>
					<bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
				</FreeTech>
			</AIFreeTechs>
		</HandicapInfo>

All the entries that begin with 'AI' obviously affect the AI, everything else affects the player or the game as a whole.

Each difficulty level corresponds to a set of bonuses or penalties to AI production, research, and other things. There may be some other differences between the levels, I suspect the obvious one is the hostility of AI nations and the probability of unprovoked attacks, but that's the main one.

It is not the case that "I play at Noble, therefore tthe computer plays at Monarch." The computer's bonuses and weaknesses are set by your choice of difficulty level. However, the AI doesn't necessarily behave differently at higher levels; it just has more of the same things it threw at you at low levels.

The AI Difficulty level is set in the mod preferences and not cannot be modified per game.

<Define>
<DefineName>STANDARD_HANDICAP</DefineName>
<DefineTextVal>HANDICAP_NOBLE</DefineTextVal>
</Define>

Those settings in GlobalDefines.xml just define which is the default setting - i.e, which button is selected when the mod is first loaded. It gets overridden when a player selects a different difficulty.


EDIT: Just checked, it's slightly different in multiplayer. In a multiplayer game you can choose the difficulty level for each player, human or AI, and only the relevant entries are applied. In single player the player choose the difficulty and it applies to themselves and all AI players, you can't select it individually. In either case though, that entry in GlobalDefines.xml can be overridden.

 

[tchristensen]

OK. I thought I was going nuts -- I play exclusively on multiplayer and do not look at the single player stuff. Makes more sense, with your description.

Edit: Doesn't these entries affect the AI too: <iUnitCostPercent>70</iUnitCostPercent> and <iResearchPercent>96</iResearchPercent>

I have always been under the assumption that these two entries control the cost of the AI unit production and their Research?

 

[Xyth]

Edit: Doesn't these entries affect the AI too: <iUnitCostPercent>70</iUnitCostPercent> and <iResearchPercent>96</iResearchPercent>

I have always been under the assumption that these two entries control the cost of the AI unit production and their Research?

iUnitCostPercent modifies unit support costs for the player, the AI equivalent is AIUnitCostPercent. AI unit production is controlled by AITrainPercent.

I'm not sure if ResearchPercent affects the AI or not, there is no matching AI tag.

 

[architekton]

I've sampled some half dozen games with the HR mod over the last few weeks and in every single one of them the progress compared to real history has been slow.

I've attached a save for my most recent game which is a good representative of what I'm seeing so that you can examine it yourself and see if anything stands out. (It didn't help that I seem to have only a few years at peace in this game - the AI has double-teamed me frequently and no sooner have I managed to arrange peace with one of them than a third AI civ decides to take a swipe at me! A right aggressive bunch...)

 

[Xyth]

I've sampled some half dozen games with the HR mod over the last few weeks and in every single one of them the progress compared to real history has been slow.

What I'm doing for the next version (due very soon) is adjusting the calendar and some gamespeed parameters to better suit HR's longer progression. For example, a normal speed game will take 600 turns rather than 500, allowing a bit more time to progress through certain eras.

This will obviously take a fair bit of tweaking to get right on all speeds and all mapsizes but it will give us a much better feel for where progression is still too out of sync.