Feedback: Tech tree

[Chandrasekhar]

I know you aren't asking me, but I'm in a ing mood at the moment, so I'll needlessly point out the decreasing E values of later-tier techs. We really ought to figure out what to do about that...

 

[Sureshot]

looks good, well done.

though id go farther with bowyers and lower it two tech levels. stirrups tho.. that needs to be lowered a level i think, its a 5 strength unit and its not going to win a fight by the time it comes out (unless your enemy is going for longbowmen and are still using archers, since while stirrups is overpriced, bowyers is worse lol)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Of course I was asking you... larger sample size, the better

 

[upthorn]

Tracking is just next to useless. Consider killing it, moving sentry to cartography, and having poison and Animal handling require cartography.
Trade is rightly expensive.

Sentry on cartography hardly makes sense--knowing how to make maps does not mean you know how to improve your vision.
Furthermore, mapmaking has nothing to do with poisons or animal handling.
What about just dropping the cost on tracking to 195 (702) and leaving it untouched?

15600
Armegeddon (73094)
Future x (73094 + 15600x) E2 M0 Why require Armegeddon? Anyone going for armegeddon probably isn't planning for the future!

Why have future tech at all? It doesn't make much sense for a fantasy setting, and it's never worth the cost of research, anyway. By the time you're researching Future Tech, you drop your research level to 0%. Unless there's going to be some sort of victory condition attached to Future Tech Z, I'd be in favor of chopping it off the tree altogether.

 

[Silverkiss]

Hum, if you have nothing to do or is waiting for a victory (cultural for example) or if the game gets as hard as Chalid wants it to get, its good to have some +health+happy...

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well, if you happen to be in the middle of an inevitable endgame war, war weariness can really put a stranglehold on you. Enter future tech. You have to research a lot of it to get anything done.

 

[Kael]

I tihnk there may have been some crash associated if the ai ran out of techs. I had it out at one point and put it back in, I think its better left in.

 

[Silverkiss]

Armored Cavalry (37332) E0 M2 Yes that's right, these beautiful units are that freaking expensive. Due the lames requirement. And they are not really much better than War charriots. Reduce price, eleminate Lames requitement, or make knights uber.

Woot please make knights uber. In every fantasy setting Knights are the most powerfull "units" there are, they practically own everything

 

[Kael]

(all numbers from normal/standard)

This is a complex thing to study, because the costs and benefits of each technology are not limited to it's straight research cost or benefits handed out. The true cost benefit of a technology are something like:
cost of tech + (cost of each prereq-benefit of each prereq) vs Benefits of tech + (benefits of each tech branching off of this tech - costs of those techs).
These costs and benefits are further modified by playstyle, map types, difficulty, synergy with other techs that aren't acutally required (less need for mages if you have priests, etc.), resource availibility, and personal taste. So: this is inexact and somewhat subjective, comment if you disagree, of course. Oh, and it might end up being long. Also, I'm biased towards minor changes.

Each tech is listed under it's incremental cost (how much is needed if all prereqs are already researched) with the total cost (if you went straight for those techs) in parenthesis.

I'll evaluate each tech for economic and military usefulness, 0-5, relative to others of its costs.

Techs (real cost)
195
Agriculture E3 M1 Everyone needs farms somewhere, and this will also get settlers/workers out quicker. The 1 military rank is from good synergy with conquest.
Crafting E1 M1 Allows one resource, and maybe some , this is the loser of its peers and serves to push back mining and construction. The M1 is from eventual axemen.
Exploration E4 M3 Vital in and of itself, connecting resources and getting troops around quicker.
Ancient Chants E3 M1-3 Needed for expansion if not creative. Also, orc slaying is vital if playing raging barbs.
T1 conclusion: No changes should be made; it'd penalize civs who start with them.


312 (507)
Animal Husbandry E2-4 M0-1 a gamble economically, depends on map and settings. Captured animals are a possible way to quick happiness if you get lucky, and animal resources are all pretty good.
Calendar E2 M2? A wonder, but building a wonder at this time is risky. Two strategic resources and most of the happy ones, but good luck using either any time soon!
Festivals E2 M0
Mining E3 M2
Masonry E1 M1 Pyramids are gone, walls may be useful. Leads to good places
Cartography E0 M1 Not doing too much by itself.
Fishing E 3 M0 THis is usually useful even if it didn't go anywhere.
Hunting E2, M3 hunters are great if you get them now.
Education E6 M2 Cottages are essential, and apprenticeship is a immediate promotion. Plus, a ton of techs require this
Mysticism E3-4, M0-1, some vital civics and free science
T2 Conclusion: Looking at techs in and of themselves, Education should probably be priced higher, hunting and mysticism as well though less so, and Cartography and masonry reduced in price or else boosted in utility.


468 (1599)
Way of Wicked E0 M0-1
Way of Wise E1 M0-1 Not alot one these by themselves. They're just there to add their price to Order/Veil


624
Horseback Riding (1131) E0 M3 decent unit
Way of Earth (1638) E3-5 M1-2 Bigger boost if you found it, of course, but any religion is worth getting if you can.
Bronze Working (1131) E2-3 M1-5 Axemen are the only unit at this time that can take cities, imo. Need copper of course.
Construction (1131) E1-2 M3 Seige are needed, though seige workshops are pretty expensive imo. Spreading irrigation is useful, usually.
Trade (2261) E5 M3 Double the real price of others at this level, but writing is useful in and of itself. Chariots look great, but need construction and AH too, so they are more expensive than they look. Basically chariots are a reward for not tech specializing. Or for trading techs well.
Sailing (1131) E1-4 M1-3, one of the most map dependant techs. Don't know if tech prices can be adjusted based on amount of water on map?
M. Deep (1638) E3-4, M3 Better units than the other religions in this level, poorer economic benefits. Still good!
Forests (1638) E3-4, M2 nice healthy religion.
Tracking (1131) E0 M1 stepstone for recon.
Archery (1131) E0 M3 safe bet as it needs no resource, no other benifits attached to the tech though.
Code of Laws (1131) E2-3, M0 Needed eventually
Writing (1131) E3-4 M0 Research multiplying is worth the investment, though free tech is unlikely
Knowledge of the Ether (1131) E0-3, M0-3, depends on your mana, of course.
Philosophy (1131) E1, M1 Step stone for all religions
Warfare (2261) E0 M3-4 Expensive as it needs bronze working. Worth it? maybe.

T3 conclusion
Is it possible to give the free tech to the first with writing AND philosophy?
Bronze working >> horseback riding and archery, imo, but if theres no copper
I think perhaps warfare should be an alternative to bronze working rather than requiring it. I don't see it so powerful as to need to be twice the others' costs unless it's on Axemen anyway!
Tracking is just next to useless. Consider killing it, moving sentry to cartography, and having poison and Animal handling require cartography.
Trade is rightly expensive.
Religion techs could increase their cost w/o losing a drop of desireability too


1248
Drama (2262) E1-3 M1 Vital for cultural win, of course
Smelting (2379) E2 M2 Forges!
Arete (2379) E1 M4-5 If you're runes, grab it first.
Sanitation (2379) E5 M0 clear jungles and increase pop by 3
Honor (2379) E0 M2 Decent national wonder.
Deception (3969) E0 M0-2? Going though changes, but still only useful to the first to research it
Optics (2379) E0-3 M0-2, map dependant, but could give you more room to expand
Mind Stapling (2379) E2-3 M 3-5
Poison (2379) E0 M2-3 Deadend tech, though not unit. Useful if your opponents have the copper monopoly
Animal handling (2886) E0-1 M4 Rangers are very good atm.
Military strat (7254) E0, M2 I don't use this much, don't know why it is so expensive. Surely one could have a strategy without good maces? Perhaps a philosophy prereq
Currency (2379) E4 M2-4 Changes coming here militarily, but the economic benefits are worthwhile even w/o mercs.
Monarcy (2379) E1-3, M1 Possible to remove unhappiness here
Mathematics (2379) E4 M1 ditto currency w/o the mercs
Divination (2379) Not going to consider all the spells atm, any of these are decent picks depending on taste
Alteration (2379)
Elementalism (2379)
Necromancy (2379)
Priesthood (2693) E1 M4 Priests are good. varys by religion
Awaken Ancients (2379) E0 M1 culture warfare and dragon prereq. You'll get it if you can.

T4 Conclusion: Military strategy should require philosophy over iron working. Nothing there is so strong, imo. Currency could use a bit higher price, it seems. Maybe smelting and sanitation too. Honor and deception should be cheaper or better.

2496
Stirrups (3627) E0 M3 Cheapest tech here because of few prereqs. OTOH, you'll probably want the other techs prereqs anyway. I'll have to try these guys more.
Iron working (4875) E2 M4 very good tech. might need slight cost inc.
Medicine (5382) E3 M0-2 A bit overpriced, unless you have runes or are Grigori; unhealth isn't that big a problem at this point.
Astronomy (4875) E1 M? Need to see v16 to judge ships. At least not totally worthless on highland with tower of eyes. Again, can costs be changed based on a maps water content?
Ferral Bond (4875) E0 M0-7 heh, first one here gets a leg up.
Taxation (4875) E3-4 M0 good civic and building
Infernal Pact (5499) E1-4 M3-4 Founder gets more, but needed if you want state religion still pricey
Orders from Heaven (5811) E1-3 M0-4 Hero is nice, for the first, otherwise no military yet. Holy city is good, otherwise just temples. Pricey
Constitution (6279) E3 M0 republic is good, I think. doesn't merit the price atm.
Alchemy (4875) E1-2 M0-2 Don't know quite why the Ai rushes this, but since they do, it's not quite so attractive for the rest of us. could use a lower cost.
Engineering (6006) E1 M4 Road bonus is good for military. Windmills might be needed. Wonder, but not a great one, imo. pricey with prereq
Feudalism (6629) E? M0 Permanent alliances should default to on. Needs a boost or cost decrease unless you're Calabim
Religious Law (5814) E2-3 M0 Comes a bit late, could use a lower cost
Sorcery (5814) E? M? Depends on Mana, but is rarely a bad tech to get soon
Summoning(5814)E? M? Depends on Mana, but is rarely a bad tech to get soon
Fanaticism (7062) E1? M3 Decent units and castles. Monarchy bumps price up quite a bit though
Arcane Lore (12993) E-3-5 M0-2 Hero for OO, towns get hammers mean huge economic boost. Still, the two prereqs means it belongs to the next category as stands.
Animal Mastery (12246) E0 M4 Needed Ironworking means it is really a T6 as well.

T5 conclusion: eh, read each individual tech at this point, prices are fluxuating greatly w/in tiers due to prereqs. Apropriately for arcane lore &AM; less so for constitution and feudalism

4992
Bowyers (7254) E0 M3 Cost should be adjusted down as is. Comprable to macemen, though with a resource lower requirement. 2400 additional beakers to reach than ironworking?
Righteousness (12522) E0 M4-5 Grab quick if you have the order. And paladins look very pretty!
Rage (16929) E0 M4 loses out to religious warriors in this tier due to IW requirement. Reduce rage tech cost
Malevolent Designs (12522) E0 M4
Theology (10806) E0-4 M4 Couple of wonders and a high level caster? Why don't I get this sooner?
Divine Right (10806) E0 M6 Okay, I love Inquisitors. Price this higher.
Soul Debt (10806) E? M0 tech to delay summoners. Interesting wonder, though. slight decrease, but summoners do indeed rock.
Blasting (19743) E0 M3-4 Don't use this much myself; looks overpriced
Liberalism (11271) E4 M-1High due to the WoW req on Constitution. Good civics, I suppose, but becareful not to lose your heroes!
Guilds (9867) E1-3? M 5 heh, increase Cost!! I hate shadows!
Mercantilism (9867) E2-3? M0 Better for Grigori, perhaps a bit expensive though.
Machinery (10998) E3 M3 Good cost, I think. production boosts, but expensive ones, and a great city defender, but national units fare poorer at defense--can't move them around too well.
Commune w/ Nature (12560) E4-6, M4-5 Pricey, but maybe not enough. Druids are strong and versitile. Unless you start in paradise, a priority
Warhorses (7488) E0 M4 A very good unit for this price. Perhaps increase it, though I wasn't expecting to say that.
Metal Casting (9867) E0 M3-? Drydocks good if theres water, But Pikemen aren't top of the line yet, so this may be a bit pricey. Then again, experience says otherwise.
Corruption of Spirit (10491) Gah, speaking of pricey! Really, lower the cost or add some more bonuses.
Unquestioning Obedience (10803) See above. Better free unit, though slightly higher research time

9984
Strength of Will (22977) E? M2-5 depends on mana, but always useful. good price if you have reagents. If not, go kill someone!
Golem Mastery (24108) E0 M2 You'll get it if you founded runes and have sky high production; otherwise? nah
Ethereal Call (20790) E0 M6 Yes, love these guys too. Oh, and Shadows make me
Mithril Working (19860) E0 M1 Pricey, for nothing yet!
Armored Cavalry (37332) E0 M2 Yes that's right, these beautiful units are that freaking expensive. Due the lames requirement. And they are not really much better than War charriots. Reduce price, eleminate Lames requitement, or make knights uber.
Domesticate Camels (29211) E0, M3 weaker than War Charriots, but great withdrawl. expensive.
Lames (19860) E0 M3 Decent national unit, fair price
Celerty (17238)E0 M4 decent cost
Precision (24492)E0 M4 I bit expensive; also, on an unrealated note, how about allowing assassains upgrade to marksmen OR shadows?


14976
Elephants (44187) E0 M4 well, more expensive than knights, but quite strong. I've rarely seen these fellows, though.
Mithril Weapons (34836) E0 M4 good units. Might need them for a few entrenched cities fair price.
Divine Essence (45192) E0 M4-5 Immortals and dragons? okay, I can live with the cost.
Omniscience (50006) E0 M0 Yes, no real benefits here. You're only getting this if there is nothing left or you want to destroy the world.
Pass through ether (35766) E0 M4-5 gates make your units count twice, as they can warp on anywhere.


15600
Armegeddon (73094)
Future x (73094 + 15600x) E2 M0 Why require Armegeddon? Anyone going for armegeddon probably isn't planning for the future!

Okay, that was long. Agree, disagree?
(please forgive typos)

This is amazing work. Im not going to start cutting it in tongiht because it is such a giganic chunk of cremy goodness, but I would love to hear some more feedback form players. After my first read it looks like exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for and I think its excellent advice.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Sentry on cartography hardly makes sense--knowing how to make maps does not mean you know how to improve your vision.
Furthermore, mapmaking has nothing to do with poisons or animal handling.
What about bumping hunting down a tier

Well, I should have added that it's need a name change. Map making does have to do with exploring and knowledge of the land.
It works as is I guess, but it looks sorta funny just sitting there with nothing but a promotion. Hunting and Poisons do need it's cost added to theirs though; w/o something in their they'd come too soon.

This is amazing work. Im not going to start cutting it in tongiht because it is such a giganic chunk of cremy goodness, but I would love to hear some more feedback form players. After my first read it looks like exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for and I think its excellent advice.

Well I learned a lot too. Like, cavalry might be more useful than I though as is for the midgame units, if I didn't feel so much need for the economic effects of the other techs that gave similar units.

 

[Maniac]

Wonders are a reward for being the first to discover a certain tech. When I design a tech tree, I never make more than one world wonder available per tech. One wonder is already enough as reward. If you have a good idea for a second wonder, it's better to move that to a different tech and create an extra interesting choice somewhere else. May I therefore suggest one of the wonders of Theology is moved elsewhere (or gets a second prerequisite tech)?

Also a lot of the techs in FfH are useless for some civs or in certain situations. This is of course inevitable to a certain degree seeing the great variety between civs. Still stuff could be done to keep the tech tree less cluttered with useless techs. For example:

Make the Poisons tech unresearchable for civs that can't build assassins.
Make Malevolent Designs unresearchable for Runes/Order followers. Same with Righteousness and Overlords/Veil.
Make Deception unresearchable if the Trojan Horse has already been built.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Another thing: could Paladins also require Metal Casting, while Eidolons require Arcane Lore or somesuch? Righteousness and Malevolent Designs are perhaps stronger than their tech cost indicates as things are now. Splitting the units between multiple techs (like chariots) would be very welcome, I think. A similar approach could be used for some other less-than-useful techs.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

This [Nikis-Knight's posting] is amazing work. Im not going to start cutting it in tongiht because it is such a giganic chunk of cremy goodness, but I would love to hear some more feedback form players. After my first read it looks like exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for and I think its excellent advice.

Nikis-Knight's posting there is a great way to get people thinking about this stuff. I especally appreceate the trouble it took to calculate the beaker cost for each tech. I hard data.

The E and M values though are subjective not hard data. But it's a great mechanism to get thoughts flowing on this stuff. For example, I would rate the early three religious techs as E6 on a scale of E1 to E5; H-K rates them only a 3. Who is 'right'? Well, neither of us, because the whole E1-E5 thing is just a sort of mental shorthand to help us organize our thoughts. So I'm not going to try to produce my own list with my own E and M values.

I agree 100% with th enotion of making small changes. I realize I have opined that the tech tree needs some fundemental re-arrangement. But that does not mean I think it should be re-arranged hastilly. Small changes are what the doctor orders at this stage.

Right now I don't have too many specific ideas, because quite frankly the matter is mind-boggling complex. But a couple general ideas are floating around the head.

Tree Need-um Roots: I'm thinking perhaps FfH will need a 5th or even 6th tier 1 tech from which to branch off later developments. More 'roots' and a shorter 'crown'. The general idea being to further segregate specializations, so different civs perform in different manners.

More Roots Bring More Fruits: The flip side to segregating specializations is to reward civs for specializing. Perhaps what is needed here is not more diffences but more samenesses? Let's pick the Trade tech and the Foreign Trade civic. I've heard a lot of players say they feel compelled to get this civic even though they'd rather do something else. The FT civic is just too powerful an incentive. So perhaps we need to let civs invent the same (or similar) gizmo in more than one tree branch? This would in theory reward/encourage civs to specialize.

Let's name our 6 new roots: Religion, Magic, Social, Manufacturing, Wilderness, Warfare. Civs well up the social ladder learn a certain respect for others and soon crave Foreign Trade. Civs well established in the Wilderness line don't want to change plans so they develop, instead, the Preservation civic. Wilderness civs are still a bit jealous (unhappy) of all the luxuries Foreign Trade nations enjoy. But those nations are now jealous of the lush national parks Wilderness citizens enjoy. Since no nation could adopt both, there's less incentive for civs to abandon the path they really want to pursue. I don't know if this is the best example ... the idea just occured to me and I hope I managed to describe what I mean.

Which Branches Do I Climb? I think the key to understanding tech tree dynamics is to learn how players use the thing. For my money it is hard to drive too far up the tree without pausing to play a bit of catch-up in other branches. I have yet to play all the civs in FfH. I cannot say I have come close to exhausting the options. But even so I do find myself often climbing the same branches. He's ones I can remember.

Ancient Chants to Education to Mysticism. Basically my opening to every game, unless something jumps out at me on Turn 1. (Every new game for me is also a new Civilization so things do jump out at me. ) But right now it would take quite a bit to divert me from this extrremely powerful opening.

Exploration-to
...Hunting-to-Leaves or
...Fishing-to-OctoLords with Leaves frankly being the most probable. Exploration is very valuable early on for development and for combat. Hunting is almost always useful early on, Fishing a bit less so. But both routes off Exploration have slightly more untility than

Crafting-to-Mining-to-Runes Crafting brings essentially nothing to the early game. Mining is nice if gold is nearby, but even so you'll need Explorations roads. So it is a bit more of a commitment to go after Runes right after Mysticism. If someone else gets Runes first, you'll have to start all over at Exploration. If someone beats you to Leaves, it's less expensice to start over on OO, or vice versa. So all things being equal, I use the Runes Branch a bit less often than the two Exploration religions.

Agriculture-something At this point I'm sorta stop climbing branches. It's pick-up-the-missing-techs time. But Agriculture definitely kicks in around tis time. Sometimes it pays to head fo Calendar, or Animal Handling, or Festivals, depending on your civs and what is around you. Religion happycaps are increasing now, so farms can be built on those special resources like Wheat, at least.

Once I have the 'basics' lined up, it's time to head up a new specialization branch. But often times at this point I find myself going back and forth. Philosophy-to-Priesthood is an obvious one. But often it is hard to devote som many turns to one branch while ignoring all the rest. And I'm outta ideas anyway. So I'd be interested to hear what branches other players climb.

 

[Silverkiss]

I almost always go Ancients Chants -> Mysticism -> Hunting -> FoL -> Infraestructure Techs (agriculture, mining, etc) -> Feral Bond. (I play Calabim normally) Then I go for Fanatism while I conquer everyone else with Rangers led by Kythra Kiryel and the Baron, until I get Losha Valas and the game ends by spreading vampirism to all strong units and obliterating the rest of the world

 

[Nikis-Knight]

For example, I would rate the early three religious techs as E6 on a scale of E1 to E5; H-K rates them only a 3.

Actually, I gave them 3-4 to denote the difference in founding a religion makes over adopting it and the getting what you do from the techs w/o Holy city. But 4-5 may be better, like you said, mostly subjective.
BTW, check the changelog, some changes will be coming in v16.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Actually, I gave them 3-4 to denote the difference in founding a religion makes over adopting it and the getting what you do from the techs w/o Holy city. But 4-5 may be better, like you said, mostly subjective.
BTW, check the changelog, some changes will be coming in v16.

My bad ... but yeah, it all depends on how each person comes up with the 1 thru 5. I did check the changelong and

 

[Kael]

Actually, I gave them 3-4 to denote the difference in founding a religion makes over adopting it and the getting what you do from the techs w/o Holy city. But 4-5 may be better, like you said, mostly subjective.
BTW, check the changelog, some changes will be coming in v16.

I tried to go through and update based on your feedback. Let me know if I missed anything big, or if you think thats enough of a change for now and we will adjust again based on feedback.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

How about Bowyers? Could be changed to the cost of Iron working + smelting, about 3600 on Normal/standard, rather than about 4600.

 

[Kael]

How about Bowyers? Could be changed to the cost of Iron working + smelting, about 3600 on Normal/standard, rather than about 4600.

Will do .

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

What do you think about some cross requirements in the naval tech tree. The way it is now it just depends on map and situation if I rush through the naval tech tree or avoid it completly. When I need water units I usually just get astronomy after optics (don't know how the new naval system affects this but haven't read about any changes regarding this).

I sugesst making different requirements from the construction/engeneering branch make sense flavour (better technics = better ships) and gameplay wise (sort of a time barrier beetween t2 and t3 naval units).

I like it that queen of the line already does this by needing drydocks but I it would be cool to have construction as prerequisite for optics and mathematics for astronomy (or what ever makes sense in your opinion).


edit: I also think that the whole branch should give something back that isn't completly related to the naval world (like tower of eyes) but I can't think of anything right now.