Feedback: Tech tree

Nikis-Knight · Nov 22, 2006

I don't think you need a proto archer. Warriors already have a city defense bonus. To have better defense earlier, I'd decouple archery from hunting and maybe add back palisades to crafting to give an extra 10% bonus until construction.

Chandrasekhar · Nov 22, 2006

Hm... if we're just going to reshuffle the current tree, then this might be redundant, but I think it would be beneficial to have a list of all the features that can be gotten with techs. I'll make a list and try to sort it based on both "flavor" (economic, military, etc.) and value (to determine where it should go).

Spoiler feature list :

That's what's currently in the mod. If we're going to completely redesign the tree, then we're going to have to completely redistribute all that... a formidable task. I can see where the status quo might be favored here.

Unser Giftzwerg · Nov 22, 2006

Chandrasekhar said:
I don't like to pass any sort of judgment on ideas before they're completely posted, but I have class in 10 minutes, so let me just throw in my preemptive two cents. The system you describe certainly looks interesting, but I'm worried that it will cut down on uniqueness. If I can add my own little bit to it, I'd say that, in your copper and pottery example, you might instead have a base, more expensive tech ("Warfare"), and this tech would be a necessary requirement for all tier-2 unit techs. Each of these tier-2 unit techs would then have their own requirement aside from that (mining for axemen, hunting for archers and hunters, etc.). Off to class I go.

I think the problem is in my description of the 'frond' as exclusive to certain civilizations, then, I turned around and used the same term to apply to generic military units. All of which are generally available to all civs.

I think your fears of homoginzation are far overblown. In the first place, many civs have their own twists on many of the mainline units. Firebowmen are quite distinct from Longbowmen. Axemen are quite distinct from Moroi.

In the second place I am all for variety, but I don't think every road leading to variety is worth taking. When 'variety' is another word for You Can't Build Pikemen Because The Gods Decideded Every Civ Must Invent Macemen First Then Spend Another Twenty Years Inventing Pikemen No Matter How Many Mounted Units Are Invading Your Homeland, then that represents a vast improvement in the realm of succint phrasing. It is not, however, neccessarilly an improvement in wargaming.

Those specific responses aside, consider a TT in which 97% of all inventions can (and eventually will) be learned by every surviving civlization. Compare that against a TT in which no one civ can invent more than perhaps 80-85% of all the techs appearing on the tree. Which situation leads to greater variety and specialization?

Unser Giftzwerg · Nov 22, 2006

Nikis-Knight said:
I don't think you need a proto archer. Warriors already have a city defense bonus. To have better defense earlier, I'd decouple archery from hunting and maybe add back palisades to crafting to give an extra 10% bonus until construction.

Ahh yes, the old Palasades would fit the bill. Good catch.

The idea is something should be available to cheaply toughen cities. Given the scare variety of tier-1 units, reviving the Palisades might very well be better than a proto-archer.

As for decoupling archers from hunting, all that would be decoupled assuming a 'frond' structure was adopted.

Unser Giftzwerg · Nov 22, 2006

Chandrasekhar said:
Hm... if we're just going to reshuffle the current tree, then this might be redundant, but I think it would be beneficial to have a list of all the features that can be gotten with techs. I'll make a list and try to sort it based on both "flavor" (economic, military, etc.) and value (to determine where it should go).

That's what's currently in the mod. If we're going to completely redesign the tree, then we're going to have to completely redistribute all that... a formidable task. I can see where the status quo might be favored here.

Definitely a huge task. As mentioned the cost is a more complex TT structure. I was going to continue on to say "... and a sharp uptick in the FfH Design Team suicide rate" but then I realized that the majority of us aren't on the FfH Design Team. Some risks are worth taking. :mischief:

Annnnyway, yes, re-working the TT would be a huge task. But did we not say a few posts ago that it was a blessing in disguise that no new version would appear for months, because all that time might be needed to re-work the TT?

And this list that you provided is a wonderful start on the project.

Chandrasekhar · Nov 22, 2006

Ah, I do like the points you've outlined in your third post there. I'm worried that it would be messy to make (imagine the Mine/Dwarven Mine issue in the current tech tree, but with whole techs instead of just features), but it's a good way to make certain branches more attractive to certain Civs.

I've got a vanilla Civ game to finish at the moment, and probably a relevant thread to make here upon finishing it, but after that I think designing some alternate branches might be an interesting exercise. I doubt we can make a full tech tree and get it put in all at once, but a change by degrees might be more realistic.

Unser Giftzwerg · Nov 23, 2006

Chandrasekhar said:
Ah, I do like the points you've outlined in your third post there. I'm worried that it would be messy to make (imagine the Mine/Dwarven Mine issue in the current tech tree, but with whole techs instead of just features), but it's a good way to make certain branches more attractive to certain Civs.

I've got a vanilla Civ game to finish at the moment, and probably a relevant thread to make here upon finishing it, but after that I think designing some alternate branches might be an interesting exercise. I doubt we can make a full tech tree and get it put in all at once, but a change by degrees might be more realistic.

There ya go. Proof of principle at least. Sounds good to me.

Maniac · Dec 6, 2006

Hmm, I wonder, in the interest of reducing loose end techs, how about removing the Poisons tech, instead make the Assassin require Tracking and Alchemy (which I guess could also include poisons), change the prerequisite of Alchemy to Writing and reduce Alchemy's beaker cost somewhat?

Chandrasekhar · Dec 7, 2006

I'd be more interested in putting assassins at deception, myself.

Maniac · Dec 7, 2006

That's also an endgame tech though. And it doesn't really make sense: why do Assassins require Philosophy?

But I thought of something even better! Rename Poisons to Herbal Lore, make it require Tracking and Education, move the Herbalist building to that tech, and make it an OR prerequisite for Medicine besides Sanitation.

Advantages:
1) It reduces the number of military-only techs.
2) It reduces the number of loose end techs.
3) It gives Fellowship of Leaves followers an alternative route to get to Medicine. For them the Sanitation tech is a low priority due to not needing farms.

Unser Giftzwerg · Dec 10, 2006

M@ni@c said:
That's also an endgame tech though. And it doesn't really make sense: why do Assassins require Philosophy?

Because when someone suggests to you that you should make every effort to kill some stranger even though in doing so you are almost certain to persih yourself, the first thing to cross your mind is, "Why?". :yup:

Chandrasekhar · Jan 6, 2007

Alright, Sureshot and I have tested a new design. It's working pretty well. We've noticed that the AI tends to be able to keep up quite a bit better with the military units.

You might want to check out her mod briefly. I'm going to see if I can pester her to post a tech tree-only mod, something more friendly to someone used to FfH. Anyway, routing the lines through each other up to the tier-4 level has helped it a lot.

Maniac · Jan 6, 2007

Chandrasekhar said:
We've noticed that the AI tends to be able to keep up quite a bit better with the military units.

Can't the same be achieved by playing on a higher difficulty level and on smaller maps?

Silverkiss · Jan 6, 2007

But it is good to play on large maps and the AI still keep up on units lol

Sureshot · Jan 6, 2007

Chandrasekhar said:
Alright, Sureshot and I have tested a new design. It's working pretty well. We've noticed that the AI tends to be able to keep up quite a bit better with the military units.

You might want to check out her mod briefly. I'm going to see if I can pester her to post a tech tree-only mod, something more friendly to someone used to FfH. Anyway, routing the lines through each other up to the tier-4 level has helped it a lot.

lalala done but link later post

Chandrasekhar · Jan 6, 2007

M@ni@c said:
Can't the same be achieved by playing on a higher difficulty level and on smaller maps?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. You'd rather see the AI cheat than have them be able to keep up without cheating?

Maniac · Jan 6, 2007

Had a look at the tech tree. I like the link between Feudalism and Chivalry, and the F6 screen is also organized better. I don't like all those extra prerequisites though. I often research many techs before a prerequisite Sureshot Mod adds. In other words, the only reason the AI performs better, is because you reduced the research options available, reducing the chance of doing stupid. I don't think reducing the number of choices leads to a more fun game though. I wonder, couldn't the same effect of a better AI not to be achieved as well by changing the values of certain techs in XML, or by writing some python events pushing the AI to research Horseback Riding/Bronze Working/Tracking/Archery if they haven't got any of those techs yet?

Chandrasekhar · Jan 6, 2007

M@ni@c said:
Had a look at the tech tree. I like the link between Feudalism and Chivalry, and the F6 screen is also organized better. I don't like all those extra prerequisites though. I often research many techs before a prerequisite Sureshot Mod adds. In other words, the only reason the AI performs better, is because you reduced the research options available, reducing the chance of doing stupid. I don't think reducing the number of choices leads to a more fun game though. I wonder, couldn't the same effect of a better AI not to be achieved as well by changing the values of certain techs in XML, or by writing some python events pushing the AI to research Horseback Riding/Bronze Working/Tracking/Archery if they haven't got any of those techs yet?

That sounds like a pretty simple fix. I'd expect Kael & Co. to have done so by now if it was that simple.

Also, Sureshot, you might want to keep the fix that kept lizardman assassins from spawning from ruins in the tech tree mod.

Sureshot · Jan 6, 2007

i did

(as in, its part of the tech tree only mod) tho i almost posted it without it

about getting the AI to pick wisely, its also about helping new players, but from what ive heard theyve tried helping the AI, but the AI still knows how to wander around the tech tree aimlessly.

Maniac · Jan 6, 2007

Chandrasekhar said:
That sounds like a pretty simple fix. I'd expect Kael & Co. to have done so by now if it was that simple.

You're more optimistic about your fellow Civ4 modder than I am. :mischief:

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