Fellowship of Leaves for non-elves

Weltherrscher

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
5
Hello,

I have a question regarding the Fellowship, or ancient forests respectively. Why isn't it possible to build lumber mills in ancient forests? This way the Fellowship would be an attractive option for non-elf civs, too.
 
Logically, because chopping down trees prevent them from becoming ancient? Of course, you can build a lumber mill in a regular forest and let it upgrade, which is weird.
 
Well, as far as I can see logic isn't the most important factor in FfH. :D Anyhow I didn't find it logical when Archery was made to provide lumber mills and +50%:hammers: for chopping down forests.

My point is that Fellowship is a quite weak religion for civs that cannot build any improvements in forests. As you already said, it is weird to equip your forests with lumber mills before they become ancient.
 
This is a change that FF recently made. FoL is a real option for non-elves now.
 
It is possible to mod the game to make FoL better for non-elves. I have tried it before, but abandoned my attempt because of bugs I just couldn't resolve. Here are the possible options though:

1) Add in new forest-only improvements(Orchard, Nursery) that all civs can build.(Easiest Option)
2) Make FoL units able to build improvements without destroying forests(Warning: Caused a LOT of bugs for me.)
3) Modify the DLL to make civs under FoL act the same as Elves(Best Option balance-wise, but takes a LOT of work and requires SDK knowledge; Also has severely limited modmod compatability)
 
I makes no sense. You get production from a forest from chopping down trees. Ancient Forests still provide production. Boywers still have to make arrows from wood and wood comes from trees. So elves do cut down trees. A Lumbermill just means that they do it more efficiently. The restriction on lumbermills is stupid at best.
 
FoL is a relatively weak religion for non-Elves who want to build lumber mills in ancient forests. It should be - it's one of the advantages for being an Elf. One of the points for having limitations, costs/benefits, etc. is to require us to make interesting choices (like playing this civ and not that civ) that have consequences. If one switches state religions, civics, etc. then one should lose/gain access to religious heroes, lumbermills, troop type, production bonuses, etc.

I play the Elves and the loss of chariots, catapults, arquebusiers, etc. is a consequence of playing that civ, with FoL (and other Elven stuff) and forest production a compensation. Every civ has some bonus that I give up when I choose not to play that civ.

If we're thinking not in game terms but in thematic, role-playing terms, having no lumbermills (except perhaps being "grandfathered in" through conversion of forest to ancient forest) makes sense. Treants may allow pre-existing works to continue under careful supervision but prohibit new ones.

Fallen trees and dead trees could easily be taken instead of cutting down trees, and the prohibition of lumbermills could easily be interpreted as symbolic of limited and careful culling of trees vs. rampant chop chop of woods. It wouldn't necessarily mean no lumber was produced or trees cut down.
 
FoL may not be particularly good as a permanent religion for non-Elves, but it works quite well as a transition religion.

1) Idle forests become idle Ancient Forests for free. True, you can't lumbermill an Ancient Forest, but you do get +1 :food: from the tile. If the tile was going to be sitting there doing nothing anyway then you're better off. In the early game I find that I develop resource tiles, and mine hills. Some riverside tiles will be farmed. Other flat tiles not high-priority for development until mid-game when my cities have grown large. Until then these tiles either aren't worked or are worked without an improvement on them. Only once all the high-priority tiles are developed will I go back and add lumbermills to the forested tiles, as an afterthought. Having those Forests upgrade to Ancient Forests is free food to help the city grow large faster. When it becomes time to develop the tile I'll just replace the AF with another improvement.

2) Ancient Forests chop for more :hammers:. When I do get around to replacing the AF I get more of a hammer boost from chopping it than if it were a normal Forest. This can add up to a considerable amount of :hammers: when deforesting around a city with many AF tiles.

3) Priests of Leaves. While following FoL you can build several Priests of Leaves and keep them after you move on to another religion. They offer a number of benefits, including the ability to bloom tiles and summon tigers. Bloom will allow you to put a forest where you want it, either for another chance to lumbermill a forest tile before it upgrades to an AF or to preposition a forest on a tile that will then have a camp built in it (the other improvement that non-Elves can build in a forest tile). Tigers are okay as shock troops, but to my mind their biggest benefit is the ability to produce Tiger Cages in cities. +1 :) and +3 :culture: per city is a nice bonus for having followed FoL in the past.

4) Woodsman II. The only way to enable this promotion is to follow FoL and research Ancient Paths. Often it is not necessary or even particularly useful, but if you plan to try to set up large areas of your territory with lumbermilled forests (some or all upgraded to AF) then you might need it to help with enemies that make it into your trees. It is nice to have access to the promotion even if your entire area is going to be deforested, however, if you have Elven enemies. Their territory is likely to be heavily forested, and so having some Woodsman II units can help you in a war against them.

5) Refuge against Blight. There's an advantage to driving the AC up enough for Blight to trigger before your cities are large, especially if you expect the AC to end up reaching that level later anyway. If you can do this quickly enough then you can leave many of your forests intact, to provide further :health: to protect your cities. Once Blight has passed you can safely deforest your area without the danger of civ collapse from Blight penalties. If you are planning this strategy anyway then following FoL will help, because those forests you aren't chopping down will produce +1 :food: if upgraded - which will increase the food available to the city and reduce the chance of starvation during Blight. Also, if you happen to research Ancient Paths then you can switch to Guardian of Nature once Blight triggers. This will burn off a few points of :yuck: while in anarchy, and also offer a :health: boost to overcome the Blight penalties. Once the danger is past you can switch to another religion and chop all those trees away (with extra :hammers: from AFs as compensation for production lost to anarchy).
 
I just used FoL very successfully in a Kurio game. Extra health and food = massive cities, and I didn't need to bother with workers for most of it.
 
Getting Ancient Forests spread around can be very helpful for a civ like the Doviello, who (on flavor-y starts) are typically stuck in tundra areas with lots of forest but severely limited food.
 
Just for the mention of Chariots being mentioned as "useful" ... if you want mounted units, chariots can almost be considered unuseful unless you have sources of Iron (which is usually quite out of the way). Basically, horsearchers are far superior to chariots until they have iron, and once Chariots have Iron, even then its more situational. Of course, with Mithril chariots would be the obvious choice xD ... but If you don't have knights by that time you are obviously not using a mounted strategy.

Speaking of mounted ... Fyrdwell requiring deer certainly make the elven "power" mid-game alot more random and map-dependent.
 
I agree that horse archers are generally better for new builds than chariots in the middle game. However, I do find that chariots are a good upgrade for some of my well promoted warriors and axes once the rest of my army has adopted the mobility promotion as standard. Often there will be a couple of axes with (say) 11 exp and combat 3 that are too slow to get into the action and can't get another promotion (for mobility) in the near future. Making them a chariot is a good way of making use of their hard earned promotions. It's less likely but a well promoted archer can be turned into a horse archer in the same way.
 
I was thinking about that one and it has advantages and disadvantages IMO. ADV is that since deer is found in tundra, then there is less competition to build there which means you should more easily aquire it if you go looking. DISADV is that elves usually start in grassland/plains areas where deer is rare so therefore you have to move a distance to get deer.
 
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