Female snipers

vonbach said:
The Soviets were notorious for shall we say "fudging" on certain facts.
Take a look at the Katyn massacre they blamed that on the Germans for
decades. Or the Holomodor where they killed 10 million Ukrainians and
denied it ever took place. The stories of glorious female snipers fighting
for the the people should be taken with a massive grain of salt to put it mildly.
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Except where they're verified, and have been for decades?
 
vonbach said:
The Soviets were notorious for shall we say "fudging" on certain facts.
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The main thing they had done is defeating Nazis and cleaning out this infection from the face of the world. I think we can forgive them some "fudging", just because of this great achievement.
 
One more example of special kind of woman which in my opinion, deserves admiration.

Svetlana Savitskaya

savitskaya.jpg


Test pilot and cosmonaut.
Has world records in parachuting and jet plane aerobatics.
Won first place at the 6th World Aerobatic Championship in 1970
Performed test flights on Soviet fighters, starting from Mig-21 and Mig-25.
Second woman in space (after V. Tereshkova)
First woman in the world to perform a space walk on July 25, 1984.
 
red_elk said:
The main thing they had done is defeating Nazis and cleaning out this infection from the face of the world. I think we can forgive them some "fudging", just because of this great achievement.
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Missed the point.
 
red_elk said:
Don't think so.
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That doesn't actually matter. The thread topic is about the number of kills each of these snipers ostensibly notched during the war; the fact that the Soviets were on the winning side in that war doesn't mean all of their kill counts are accurate.
 
Dachs said:
That doesn't actually matter. The thread topic is about the number of kills each of these snipers ostensibly notched during the war;
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This thread is not about kill counts, in my opinion.
I was thinking that thread topic is about female military personnel, their role in the war and ability to do "men's job". Even if number of kills is 30 instead of 300 it's still quite an achievement, isn't it? Not to mention the quality of Soviet sniper's school - I wouldn't be surprised if all the numbers in the first message here are accurate.

Dachs said:
the fact that the Soviets were on the winning side in that war doesn't mean all of their kill counts are accurate.
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Now you missed my point, but nevermind. In my reply I took into account previous messages of that poster and accusations about 10 millions of killed Ukrainians (even Ukrainian proponents of genocidal version claim several times less number).
 
I read somewhere that women would make for great submarine crews because of their cohesive nature.
 
Cryptic_Snow said:
I read somewhere that women would make for great submarine crews because of their cohesive nature.
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You don't have much experience with groups of women working together, do you? They can be pretty vicious among themselves!
 
make them all women crews .

sniping is generally taken as a field where females show greater capacity then compared to their general military "norms" . It is not about carrying heavy loads or testeron fueled rushes . This is from a guy who wouldn't be as good as a usual female conscript anyway .
 
innonimatu said:
You don't have much experience with groups of women working together, do you? They can be pretty vicious among themselves!
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Actually I work in the medical field, and its about 70% women in many departments. I know all about the pettiness of women, that's what made me do a double take after hearing the studies findings.
 
Cryptic_Snow said:
Actually I work in the medical field, and its about 70% women in many departments. I know all about the pettiness of women, that's what made me do a double take after hearing the studies findings.
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But if they're all women, they won't have any of us men to desperately try to impress.
 
red_elk said:
This thread is not about kill counts, in my opinion.
I was thinking that thread topic is about female military personnel, their role in the war and ability to do "men's job". Even if number of kills is 30 instead of 300 it's still quite an achievement, isn't it? Not to mention the quality of Soviet sniper's school - I wouldn't be surprised if all the numbers in the first message here are accurate.
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Indeed. These women weren't just random idiots savant, they were the products - and perpetuators - of a national obsession with marksmanship during the war. There were many sniper schools started before, during, and after the war by these great snipers once they finished their terms or were discharged for medical reasons.

Now you missed my point, but nevermind. In my reply I took into account previous messages of that poster and accusations about 10 millions of killed Ukrainians (even Ukrainian proponents of genocidal version claim several times less number).
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It's okay, when slandering communists numbers and facts don't matter. Even if they had killed none we cannot be sure that they didn't want to kill millions!
 
It's okay, when slandering communists numbers and facts don't matter. Even if they had killed none we cannot be sure that they didn't want to kill millions!
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Are you kidding? Do you know anything about the holomodor?
It wasn't an accident the food was confiscated and shipped out.
It was deliberate mass murder.
 
vonbach said:
It was deliberate mass murder.
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It was a country-wide hunger, caused by bad harvest of 1931 and 1932 (two years in a row) and to some extent worsened by incompetent actions of authorities.
If you can prove Stalin's intentions to kill a few millions citizens of his own country (mostly Ukrainians, Russians and Kazakhs), go ahead - you will be the first in the world who manage to do that.
 
If you can prove Stalin's intentions to kill a few millions citizens of his own country (mostly Ukrainians, Russians and Kazakhs), go ahead - you will be the first in the world who manage to do that.
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You mean aside from Ukrainians watching as Commissars beat people half to death for having a loaf of bread? Or watching as every scrap of food was shipped out of the Ukraine
so that everyone starved and the borders sealed? I'm sure 40 million + killed by Stalin was just
an "accident."
 
vonbach said:
You mean aside from Ukrainians watching as Commissars beat people half to death for having a loaf of bread? Or watching as every scrap of food was shipped out of the Ukraine
so that everyone starved and the borders sealed? I'm sure 40 million + killed by Stalin was just
an "accident."
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Yes, I would like to see your sources - you obviously did extensive research on the topic and can easily give links to a few trusted historical articles, with substantial proofs.
I'm especially interested in your numbers, like 40+ millions, killed by Stalin (in the country, with total population of 180 millions). Nazis killed about 27 millions of my compatriots, including some of my relatives - did Stalin really manage to kill more?

On topic:
A video with some documentary photos

Link to video.
 
Stalin was the biggest mass murder in human history by a wide margin 40 million is conservative.
http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/stvictims.htm
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13
Peasant dead: 1930-37 11,000,000
Arrested in this period dying in camps later 3,500,000

Total 14,500,000

Of these:
Dead as a result of dekulakization 6,500,000
Dead in the Kazakh catastrophe 1,000,000
Dead in the 1932-33 famine: 7,000,000

Famine in Ukraine 5,000,000
Famine in the North Caucasus 1,000,000
Famine elsewhere 1,000,000
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http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm
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There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago,
Intro to Perennial Classics Edition by Edward Ericson: Solzhenitsyn publicized an estimate of 60 million. Aleksandr Yakovlev estimates perhaps 35 million.
Page 178: citing Kurganov, 66 million lives lost between 1917 and 1959
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
And from the Lower Numbers school:
Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
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Ok let's see what we have here.
Lots of estimations, varied from 642,980 (number of political executions during whole period of Stalin's rule, according to Dugin)
to 60,000,000+ (number taken from Solzhenitsyn fiction novels)
Range - about two orders of magnitude

A few questions:
1. What's the point of calculating median estimation from set of incomplete numbers (political executions only) and total numbers of "excessive deaths"?
2. Which number from this range (600,000 - 60,000,000) should I trust, according to your source?
3. Citation from your source:
"but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion."
Do you really believe that Stalin killed about 1/3 of country population (he'd have to kill all adults, men and women, leaving only children and old people), and after that, the country was still able to fight off German aggression, losing additionally almost 30 millions of people?

Basically what I wanted from you is to get documentary evidences, confirming 40+ millions of deaths due to Stalin repressions. Or his intentions to genocide Ukrainians during Holodomor, for that matter. Something similar to this article,
http://web.archive.org/web/20050123...olitics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/AHR/AHR.html
which confirms about 800,000 of political executions during 1921-1953, and about 1,500,000 of deaths (for all reasons) in GULAG, exile places, prison colonies and kulak resettlements for the same period. Still very big numbers, but at least documented to some level.

Do you have the same evidences for your 40+ millions?
 
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