FfH2 0.14 Balance Recommendations

[Kael]

Govannon and his trainer promotion is very strong combined with the way raised skeletons are counted.

I have a factory deep within my borders where Govannon stands training units each turn, meanwhile on the front line Bambur has a stack of 30+ skeletons with combat V and raises a new one each turn. Very fun, but seems a bit overpowered =)

This is a doublewin condition. If you are far enough ahead of your opponents that your skeleton hordes are still valuable then you deserve to slaughter them (get that tower of necromancy to boost their strength too!).

 

[Kael]

Kael,

It seems that aggressive trait does not give anymore half cost for training yards built. Right ?
If yes, why ?
When you play aggressive leader such as Sheelba of the Clans, it's a very important bonus. Because you can't earn xp by destroying barb, every single xp is very important at the built of your troop. Sometimes, you can improve your ratio by around 7-12 % just by a single promo upgrade......
Furthemore, it only gives you +1 xp whereas it was +2 xp before. Again, why?
Even if magic if very important, some players (like me) and some played civ are strongly militaristic....

Last thing: Rantine is fun to play. Difficult but fun.

The Frog.

The training yard lost its +1 and aggresive civ bonus but picked up the ability to build axemen, macemen and pikemen.

 

[Kael]

Everyones talking about how uber these little munchkins are, but I for the life of me cant expand with them, without either A) pissing them all off. or B) falling behind in territory - which then leads to C) and eventual technologal lag, and conquest by superior units and numbers. I wanna add the promotion to my dwarven units "Get drunk and accept doomed fate"

I think they are working out pretty well. They are much better at building up their uber cities than they are out pillaging.

But if you arent used to using siege weapons you are going to want to give them a whirl with the khazad.

 

[QES]

I think they are working out pretty well. They are much better at building up their uber cities than they are out pillaging.

But if you arent used to using siege weapons you are going to want to give them a whirl with the khazad.

Thanks good to know. I never got it to that stage, i start losing cities to barbarians (or hostile neighbors) since i dont expand and i look easy. Granted....my dwarves DO wear lots of makeup and rouge especially. They're hair May be in pigtails and ribbons.....ok fine, my dwarves are transvestites. But an element of warfare is surprize. And what could be more surprizing, than the 12th Infantry Dwarven Transvestite brigade?

"Would you get a load of these guys...crazy mother...oh they've got swords! they've got axes, quick, get the weapons...ah...bugger. i was so surprized, were you surprized? I was surprized."

-Qes

Yes i Stole that...but from whom?

 

[Sarisin]

I am playing my first game with Malakhim on a Lakes huge map at Noble with raging barbs.

So far the barb invasion seems very logical - goblins/spearmen, Lizardmen, Worg Riders. Thank you for keeping those pesky chariots at bay.

Started out with 9 AI civs, but the barbs took care of 8 of them. Yep, you guessed it - just me and my old friend Jonas left to slug it out. Of course, he has the barbs as his ally.

Anyway, maybe a bit controversial, but based on my play so far, I have a suggestion:

Please eliminate the ability of barb cities to build wonders.

Here's why:

I managed to make my way to the barb city with the Red Dragon in it. After losing a few rangers and horsemen, I managed to kill the dragon and clear out the other barb units. I was surprised to find the city held the following wonders:

Dragon Horde (OK, no surprise there)
Form of the Titan
Prophecy of Ragnarok
The Great Library

It was only about the yr 750 or so and the city had 4 early wonders. You have to think if I didn't conquer it, more wonders would have followed. My reasons for taking the wonder production away from the barbs:

1. Does it make sense to you to have barbs building wonders of the world. I mean, The Great Library? Can any of them really read?

2. The barbs have an unfair advantage in that they can spawn their units. They don't really have to have the buildings, techs, civs, etc. A barb city could just build wonders as appears to be the case here. While you are busy fighting off raging barbs and building your civ, the barb city can just pick off the wonders.

In raging barbs it can be very difficult to get a wonder as you have to focus on protecting your cities and improvements from the barbs. This means building mostly military buildings and improvements with wonders out of reach.

So, you can imagine my disdain, when 3 turns away from the Form of the Titan - it was "built in a distant city far away" in this case the barb city.

Not getting the wonders also seriously impacts your GP pts. too and it is frustrating to watch the barbs have Great People show up constantly. Again, Great People barbs???

Yes, I know by taking the city I got these four wonders and that is great. Also, having other AI civs knocked out by the raging barbs allowed this city to go into Wonder Production Mode. But, I think there is still a balance issue here when a barb city that doesn't have to build units, buildings, etc. can just churn out the wonders.

BTW, I had a few CTDs around year 280 or so, but just did things differently and it ran OK - instead of waiting for a Lizardman to attack me causing the crash, I killed him, and no crash. I am saving my game every turn though.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

How about barbs get -50% wonder production? This would make it so that only wonders that no one builds for whatever reason would get built.

On a side note, what happens if the city with the Dragon's Hoard gets culture flipped? I've always been curious about that.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I doubt it will ever happen, because the city is usually a bit away from other civs, or it'd be conquered early, and lasts a long time with a wonder, so it's borders are strong.
Hmm, I wonder if a barb city could culture flip a players?

 

[QES]

I doubt it will ever happen, because the city is usually a bit away from other civs, or it'd be conquered early, and lasts a long time with a wonder, so it's borders are strong.
Hmm, I wonder if a barb city could culture flip a players?

I saw a city surounded by barbarian culture once.....it was dying - not fliping?

 

[vorshlumpf]

I've heard mention of the power that werewolves give you, and played with them myself. Perhaps a promotion to combat them is in order, something like Silver Weapons that gives a large bonus against werewolves (considering how specific the target is).

- Niilo

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I believe werewolves are actually classified as animal units...

 

[Sarisin]

How about barbs get -50% wonder production? This would make it so that only wonders that no one builds for whatever reason would get built.

On a side note, what happens if the city with the Dragon's Hoard gets culture flipped? I've always been curious about that.

Yes, there needs to be some sort of penalty for the barb cities. I don't believe the barb research any techs, do they? So, would they be able to just build any wonders? They don't have to worry about building units or buildings as their units can be spawned.

I really don't think playing with raging barbs you can just go out and attack the city with the Red Dragon in early on it the game. You are usually very busy protecting your city and improvements from the invading barbs. It can take quite a while before you venture out beyond your borders with units powerful enough to take on the power 18 Red Dragon and the rest of the units in the city.

Honestly, I'm not sure I like the concept of barbarian cities that can grow, build wonders, Great People, etc. Weren't most barbs roving bands? Yes, settlements maybe, but when you see them settling down and building The Great Library, I don't know. It kinda takes away from their barbarianness.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Actually, they do research techs, albeit at a slow rate, though it might be on a city-by-city basis or something. In any case, they are limited on what wonders they can build, it's just that they don't have a whole lot else to build other than wonders for them.

 

[BeefontheBone]

@QES: Eddie Izzard, I believe

 

[vorshlumpf]

Honestly, I'm not sure I like the concept of barbarian cities that can grow, build wonders, Great People, etc. Weren't most barbs roving bands? Yes, settlements maybe, but when you see them settling down and building The Great Library, I don't know. It kinda takes away from their barbarianness.

Unless they are being led by an ancient, intelligent red dragon, right?

- Niilo

 

[vorshlumpf]

I'm a big fan of slow starts, and so the early exploration seems a bit too much for me. I was wondering if Mobility I or, at least, Mobility II could be moved to tech that is a step or two away from Exploration?

- Niilo

 

[Sarisin]

Actually, they do research techs, albeit at a slow rate, though it might be on a city-by-city basis or something. In any case, they are limited on what wonders they can build, it's just that they don't have a whole lot else to build other than wonders for them.

Really? If this is true, it would be very helpful to have a list of those techs they can research and what wonders they can build because why waste your time trying to get a Wonder when the barb city will snatch it away? OK, you do get the gold.

Again, I just think that having the barbs set up cities, build Wonders and have Great People appear is not what they are in the game for. If this is the case, then you have another AI civ to contend with and this one can spawn many units, doesn't have to worry about maintenance costs, etc. It is a balance issue.

It's been so long since I played vanilla-Civ, I don't remember if there were any barb cities or not. Again, maybe it is just me, but I think you are taking away from their barbarian qualities by letting them build the cities, Wonders, etc. They are more like one of the non-playable AIs like Infernal except they can spawn the units.

Wouldn't it be enough to just let them roam the land wreaking havoc, maybe setting up a camp or settlement, but not getting involved in the building of Wonders, etc.?

I'm sorry if this is not an FFh issue, and it isn't that big of a deal, but it can be a balance problem when the barbs can do just about everything you can do AND spawn units too!

 

[BeefontheBone]

The buildings available to the barbs, including wonders, are restricted in the XML (can't remember where offhand) - it might be worth adding a few things like the Great Library to that list

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

As kazad, my dwarven catapults saved me from sheelba and then destroyed two more nations. i beelined for gunpowder hoping that the cannon would be even better. boy was i disapointed. one more strength and half the retreat ability? WTH? The dwarves need a unique cannon Dwarven Cannon/Dwarven Bombard/whatever. i just want my late game siege engine to be actually better then my early one!

 

[QES]

@QES: Eddie Izzard, I believe

We Have a winner.

 

[QES]

As kazad, my dwarven catapults saved me from sheelba and then destroyed two more nations. i beelined for gunpowder hoping that the cannon would be even better. boy was i disapointed. one more strength and half the retreat ability? WTH? The dwarves need a unique cannon Dwarven Cannon/Dwarven Bombard/whatever. i just want my late game siege engine to be actually better then my early one!

Maybe dwarves use cannons over seige engines 'cause blowin' up stuff is cool, not cuase its effectual. Admit, that a goodly portion of us would do something in favor of its looking flashy over its direct utilitarian use. Dwarves are not particular exceptions...if they get to blow things up, who is to say thats not better, simply cuase it looks cooler?

-Qes

PS. 1 Str, IS 1 Str...with promotions that can add up. But i never got them, so dont take my word on it.