FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Xuenay]

That would be way too powerful. Would mean they instantly got 4-5 free promotions only requiring 17 xp, or 17 turns.

I believe Sureshot meant that the unit would also lose the promotions it had earlier.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I think the problem here is with the Tower of Mastery, not the hammers. If you have all of the Mana and the four lesser towers, you should be able to finish the game relatively quickly. It took me over 80 turns with my best production city...

I just built Genesis in my main production city in about 25 turns. I assume that's about what they want, if not a bit slower.

In my most recent complete game the Tower of Mastery was calculated to take 55 turns in my best city. I turned my commerce into 100% gold. I turned city production into gold as ongoing projects finished. That reduced those 55 turns to about 17. That's not long at all for a game-ending build.

 

[Sureshot]

I believe Sureshot meant that the unit would also lose the promotions it had earlier.

ya, in "reset it back to level 1" i thought that it would be obvious itd lose all its promotions

itd be a pricey thing to do for a heroic promotion, but could only be done once and would give you a unit which could get 2 higher strength then your other units so youd have a chance against enemies who still have heroes. but it would be helpful in situations where two players are the same civ, since in such only one can build the civ-related hero.

 

[Grey Fox]

K, then I must say it doesnt sound like an attractive deal. I wouldnt do it alot atleast. Probably never actually.

I'd rather keep a 200 xp unit than sacrifice it for the chance it will reach heroic strenght.

 

[Sureshot]

well, so long as it lives 100 turns, its guarranteed to be able to get combat 5 and 2 heroic strengths, and 1 more promotion i think

so think of a warrior, at 200 xp its got base strength of 4 from the combat 5, and some utility and conditional promotions

you reset it and after 100 turns itd have 8 base strength with its combat 5 and 2 heroic strengths, and 1 extra promotion, all by just sitting somewhere (plus it can be upgraded so it will always be your strongest unit)

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Would it be so bad to increase the tier-2 disciple units' combat strength to 3? I know they aren't supposed to be very military, but they are tier-2 units after all. If not all of them, then perhaps just the Order and Veil ones, as they do show up later?

 

[Sureshot]

id prefer if they remained at 2 (like adepts are) but gained the slow xp gain, and were required to make priests (i.e. priests cant be built, instead only upgraded from disciples/prophets)

would make them more useful early on, and would solve the priest spam problem (hate when im facing a stack of like 20 priests all spamming tigers every single turn)

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I actually like to upgrade them to Crusaders (and then Paladins) instead of Confessors. The problem with upgrading a military unit to a spellcaster unit is that all of the combat promotions you spent on the military unit just end up slowing the rate at which the caster gets new spells. Going from 2 strength to 6 seems a bit bizarre to me.

 

[Sureshot]

heh, maybe make priests upgradeable to crusaders/etc. then itd be 2 to 4, then 4 to 6ish would allow for some interesting promotions/spells unit combos

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Heh, too bad Crusaders and Confessors are both tier-3 units. Now, Confessors to Paladins... drat, 4-13. We're back where we started.

 

[Sureshot]

heh, i think based on the upgrade mechanics you can set it up to upgrade a tier 3 to a tier 1 (atleast it looks are tho you can, havent tried), so tier 3 to tier 3 wouldnt be a problem

 

[QES]

I've abandoned balancing ideas until .16 comes out. All I can focus is on possible new features, or altercations to existing strategy play. Individual effects might be drastically altered by random things we dont even consider currently. Butterfly effects and all. So I'll hold my breath till .16 on balance, however, features and the like, or general design wishes (like an improved cavalry line) are i think prime targets for hope.
-Qes

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

In my ongoing game (coolest game of FfH I've played yet by far) naval units have played a significant role. Long story short ... if I were a FfH naval architecht tasked with designing a ship to carry invasion forces to hostile shores ... and I knew about the Arcane Barge and the prevelence of fireball-tossing mages living on shore ... then I would find some way to give these ship fire defenses.

I therefore suggest the Queen of Battle be given the combat promotion against Fire units. It will make invasion forces more survivable as they plod closer to hostile shores.

 

[Kael]

In my ongoing game (coolest game of FfH I've played yet by far) naval units have played a significant role. Long story short ... if I were a FfH naval architecht tasked with designing a ship to carry invasion forces to hostile shores ... and I knew about the Arcane Barge and the prevelence of fireball-tossing mages living on shore ... then I would find some way to give these ship fire defenses.

I therefore suggest the Queen of Battle be given the combat promotion against Fire units. It will make invasion forces more survivable as they plod closer to hostile shores.

Okay, Naval units have the ability to learn the magic resistance and fire resitance promotions if they desire.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Okay, Naval units have the ability to learn the magic resistance and fire resitance promotions if they desire.

Awesome. I just saw that change listed on the 0.16 list. I haven't been able to get online for 3-4 days, so I assumed that change had been made a few days ago. I assumed that, once again, that I should have read first and posted second.

Is there a way to encourage the AI to prioritize this promotion, at least for the Queen of Battle ship? I think it will help AI military campaigns if they tend to posess fire-resistant troop transports.

...

This game I am getting to the end of the tech tree. Not only that, but the AI has pulled out a couple strategic surprises on me. Friggin Sidar .. so many units.

I had smashed two and a half major invasions by the Sidar and my Sheaim Djiin had sunk their western coast fleet. Then my counter-invasion some turns later had taken all the Sheaim 'homeland' cities. scarfing up several Wonders and killing a massive stack of casters in the Sidar capitol. A turn or two later a large Sidar counter-attack was Battle of the Bulged ... contained and crushed. Instinct told me that was probably the last surge from the Sidar, given the massive casualties they'd suffered the past 25 turns. I decided it was a good time to throw my nation into a 3-turn revolution.

Then during the AI turns I wated as cannon after cannon emerged from the fog of war to blast my largest stack. Then the Sidar troops swarmed in. I managed to hold on to the city, thanks to one badly wounded surviving mage. But I lost a couple each Inquisitors, High Priests, 2 of my 3 contagion casters, Rosier the Fallen, to mention a few.

Also emerging from the for of war was a massive invasion fleet of 5 or 6 fully-loaded Queens screened by privateers. This fleet appeared offshore of my home continent, to the west of Sidar's home continent. Along the east shore of Sidar's continent was a second fleet of Queens equally as large, but lacking much Privateer support. Just when I juded Sidar's back to be broken, Sidar hits me with over 100 units in three strong columns. Just when Sidar scrapes up yet another massive counter-attack, a new revolution ensures no quick reinforcement construction. For a while there, it looked like I would be forced out of most of my conquests.

Thank goodness, then, for the Meteor spell. Sidar crushed a very important stack of mine, but they left the Archmages alone. They left the Eaters of Dreams alone. Nine meterors were launched at the fleet to the east. If it landed its troops to my rear, I would not be able to stop them with my 1 unit/city garrisons. I hoped to sink a couple Queens, but at least force them to land their troops near the front lines. This worked well. The 9th Meteor had nothing to do except witness all the smoking wreakage.

The fleet to my west fared better. I had retained my Djin casting Summoners in my homeland. The Djiin swam forth and swarmed the invasion fleet. The Privateers did their job, dying to save the Queens. They had to fight past a couple waves of Djiin, but 4 of the 5 Queens lived to drop off their troops. They didn't survive long afterwards, but they did deliver thier cargo.

Thanks to the sinking of an entire fleet at the hands of 8 Meteors, the Sidar counter-offensive was crushed. Their invasion of my homeland reached shore, but were contained on the beachhead. The eastern invasion fleet would have had some survivors if there were more Privateers to absorb Meteors, but still, it "felt cheap" to eliminate one-third of the threat with 3 of my units.

That's what got me thinking in terms of a FfH ship builder. If I know there are all these fireballs and water summonings and whatnot to shorten the life-expectancy of wooden ships, maybe I don't try to design a lavish warship. Maybe I don't look at the Queen as a ship to rule the waves, but more as a one-use transport with just one job: Survive long enough to reach a hostile shore.

In ffH terms a STR 8, Move 3, 6-unit cargo ship, with extra spell defenses seems like exactly such a one-use transport. Strong, but sluggish. Blast it with spells, but it will probably live long enough to reach shore unless you can back up those spells with some naval units of your own. Or use a couple Queens to provide fireball protection for a dozen of your units as you outflank an enemy along the coat. This small change might open up some fun new dynamics for the naval game.

As I said in my original post ... long story short.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

From the Department of Unpopular Ideas

The ability for Sheaim summonings to remain for three turns strikes me as a little bit too much of a good thing. I understand and fully back the goal of giving teh Sheaim a Summonig trait that is both useful and flavorful. I merely raise the question, 'Is the Summoing Trait finished in its current form?'

Here's some ideas on adjustments, to get some thoughts out there.

Because each summons lasts three turns, it is possible to send your minions deep into enemy territory without risk to your casting units. The poor nation on the receiving end doesn't have many good potential futures. Hoping the sumons will die upon Rings of Warding leaves them open to pillage. Attacking the summons with manufactured units can easilly lead to a losing war of attrition. Here's three ideas to make life a little less horrendous for Sheaim's neighbors, ideas that hopefully leave the Sheaim with plenty of flavor.

1) Change the Summoning trait from one unit per cast that lasts three turns, to two or three units per cast, that last only one turn. This will still allow the Sheaim to swarm an enemy city, but only enemy cities reasonably near the border.

2) Remove the ability for summoned units to earn promotions. This would have no effect at all on non-Sheaim civilizations, because their summonings last only one turn. For the Sheaim, it would prevent, say, Chaos Marauders from attacking on the first turn, then promoting itself with a couple City Assault promotions on turn two. Even if a Chaos Marauder is wounded badly on its first attack, a couple City assault promotions can heal it back up into a powerful city attacker on turns 2 and 3. Preventing promotions would at least cause Sheaim summonings to get worn down if they fight every turn.

3) Prohibit summoned units from pillaging. If summoned units can be sent a dozen tiles deep into enemy territory, they shouldn't be able to strip the land bare as well. That way it's either attack a unit or a city or do nothing. And attacking a city means risking a Ring of Warding.

The ideas are listed from least-reccomended to most.

FWIW.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

1) Change the Summoning trait from one unit per cast that lasts three turns, to two or three units per cast, that last only one turn. This will still allow the Sheaim to swarm an enemy city, but only enemy cities reasonably near the border.

This would actually make them stronger. Currently, they still get only one summon per turn, but can save the summons from two previous turns. With this, they'd bet getting two or three per turn, every turn. Sure, the units wouldn't be able to move as far, but the mounted line shows that a movement advantage can only be so useful before it's redundant.

2) Remove the ability for summoned units to earn promotions. This would have no effect at all on non-Sheaim civilizations, because their summonings last only one turn. For the Sheaim, it would prevent, say, Chaos Marauders from attacking on the first turn, then promoting itself with a couple City Assault promotions on turn two. Even if a Chaos Marauder is wounded badly on its first attack, a couple City assault promotions can heal it back up into a powerful city attacker on turns 2 and 3. Preventing promotions would at least cause Sheaim summonings to get worn down if they fight every turn.

One word: Einherjar. Well, maybe two words, but I can't remember the other summon. In any case, this would make them non-functional.

3) Prohibit summoned units from pillaging. If summoned units can be sent a dozen tiles deep into enemy territory, they shouldn't be able to strip the land bare as well. That way it's either attack a unit or a city or do nothing. And attacking a city means risking a Ring of Warding.

Looks fine to me. I could live with that.

The ideas are listed from least-reccomended to most.

Ah, that would explain it.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

This would actually make them stronger. Currently, they still get only one summon per turn, but can save the summons from two previous turns. With this, they'd bet getting two or three per turn, every turn. Sure, the units wouldn't be able to move as far, but the mounted line shows that a movement advantage can only be so useful before it's redundant.

Ahh, now I see where the problem comes. In the current system, the summon from turn 1 will not be on the battlefield if on turn 3, if it died in battle on turn 1 or 2. Under the proposed change, all summons would be available at full strength every turn. Well, truth be told, I offered this suggestion mostly to provoke thought/responses.

One word: Einherjar. Well, maybe two words, but I can't remember the other summon. In any case, this would make them non-functional.

Pit Beast? Hmm, yes, I suppose this change would impact non-Sheaim lv III Law and Chaos summoners ... some. Perhaps all summoned beasts except the win-a-fight-and-remain summons should be denied promotions, then?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

It seems like a lot of work for a simple issue. I guess summons were never meant to get promotions in the first place, except for those win-and-stay types. Really, just stopping summoned units from pillaging will weaken the Sheaim quite a bit. As is, summoned units tend to be the primary crop in experience farms, only really doing damage when controlled by a clever player or in doublewin situations.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

It seems like a lot of work for a simple issue. I guess summons were never meant to get promotions in the first place, except for those win-and-stay types. Really, just stopping summoned units from pillaging will weaken the Sheaim quite a bit. As is, summoned units tend to be the primary crop in experience farms, only really doing damage when controlled by a clever player or in doublewin situations.

Chaos Marauders. At STR 7 they win a battle on turn 1 .. on turn 2 they gain City Assault 1 and 2, heal twice, and are now something like a STR 6.x unit that is about 150% against cities. If it survives turn 2 it will probably promote and heal again for turn 3. And every turn a fresh one is summoned to replace those that do fall. If these units could not promote, they would gradually lose effectiveness when attacking cities. As-is, they actually can, and often do, gain combat effectiveness over time.

You just keep throwing these things at cities. It's not like throwing skellies at cities ... archery training ... 150% Chaos Marauders kill defenders. And the ones that don't kill leave defenders beat up bad. Even if each has only a 18% chance to kill a defender, the dead and wounded defenders pile up. Chaos Marauders are spammable from lv2 casters, so casualties are not an issue.

Prevent the grunt summonings from promoting, prevent all summonings from pillaging, and convince the AI to build Rings of Warding and you're probably 90% of the way there.

The Sheaimwill still be insanely leathal on the blitz .. but a lot of civs are good at that.