FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[CuteKills]

But if you are Calabim and you have developed Vampire technology, then you can create dozens of Contagion casting units and no civilization in the world will object. This is because Vampires do not need a Death Mana node in order to cast Death magic. Ditto for Ashen Veil and their Death-casting, Entropy-casting Priests.
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Is there a good reason why the Calabim get Law? Seems really odd to me; it gets an Evil race a summons (Law Bringer) that won't attack good guys - but will attack them (if someone else summons it, or course)?

Death+Body+Earth seems a touch more sensible... or am I missing something?

 

[Grey Fox]

Is there a good reason why the Calabim get Law? Seems really odd to me; it gets an Evil race a summons (Law Bringer) that won't attack good guys - but will attack them (if someone else summons it, or course)?

Death+Body+Earth seems a touch more sensible... or am I missing something?

They are lawful evil.

 

[Silverkiss]

And Death mana does a negative in diplomacy, the team doesn´t want any civ starting with death or entropy (besides Infernal).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Is there a good reason why the Calabim get Law? Seems really odd to me; it gets an Evil race a summons (Law Bringer) that won't attack good guys - but will attack them (if someone else summons it, or course)?

Death+Body+Earth seems a touch more sensible... or am I missing something?

I believe Kael once posted that no civ starts with Death or Entropy on their Palace, because no civ should start the game with massive diplomatic negatives.

OK, maybe the Lawbringer aspect perhaps is not such a great fit with the Calabim. But the Law III spell (Unquestioning Obidience?) is a great fit. It simulates the ability for a powerful vampire to sunjugate a city by fear. They might not like being ruled by the Calabim, but no one dares admit it!

 

[CuteKills]

Thanks for that.

I suppose now the question is "is there any plan to alter the Lawbringer summons".

After all, if you're invoking the D&D 2-axis alignment concept, then

Law != Good

... so it would make more sense for the Lawbringer to not attack /lawful/ alignments?

 

[Kael]

Thanks for that.

I suppose now the question is "is there any plan to alter the Lawbringer summons".

After all, if you're invoking the D&D 2-axis alignment concept, then

Law != Good

... so it would make more sense for the Lawbringer to not attack /lawful/ alignments?

No plans in 0.16. You may see some changes with this (though its doubtful it will be called lawful/chaotic) in "Fire".

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Sorry to beat this horse again. I forgot one point. I'll make it and then put this topic on the back-burner.

Let's put aside the Priest unit for a moment. What of Arcane Barges, or Amurite Firebowmen? Do they too draw their powers directly from their gods? If so, why is there no religion requirement? If not, how do these units manned with 'commoners' learn magic spells immedeately it takes student of the arcane years to learn? And without a mana node to draw on? Or vampires, do they draw power from their gods? (Even Orderly vampires? )

Now Fire magic is very popular with player and AI alike. So most nations that field Fire Barges probably have a Fire node. (The Amurites might even get Fire on their Palace; I didn't look it up.) And there are no diplomatic penalties for Fire nodes. But Death and Entropy nodes do have a penalty, and few civs build such nodes. Yet the Calabim, or any AV civ, can cast massive amounts of Death magic without drawing the ire of Good.

The biggest effect would be on Priest units, agreed. But there are other units in the mix too.

Like I said, I think it would probably be enough if it was possible to program these diplomatic implications based on actual spell casting. But I suspect it is tied to ownership of certain mana nodes due to programmer sanity considerations.

I also doubt there will be much traction to this idea, so I am not going to blister my fingertips typing up advocacy for this point. It just bugs me enough that I have to bring up the topic FWIW. Then the itching goes away.

Hm... you know, it would be pretty cool if arcane barges could cast some level 2 spell that you have mana nodes for. Or maybe they'd start with a free promotion, channeling II, and sorcery, and be able to pick a few spell sphere promotions at level up. Not all of them, but a few choice military ones.

 

[Silverkiss]

Would work like they had adepts in their crew... Good idea.

 

[Sureshot]

why not just put an adept on a regular boat?

 

[Silverkiss]

That takes 1 space from the boat, and the Arcane Barges alredy cast fireball anyway...

 

[Grey Fox]

That takes 1 space from the boat, and the Arcane Barges alredy cast fireball anyway...

Well, getting advantages because you sacrifice something is more interesting gameplay-wise then just getting advantages.

 

[felwar]

I keep meaning to play the Luchuirp long enough to test this but I cant find the time. Do they make regular adepts or dwarven adepts?

The reason I ask is because of the arcane trait on Garrim Gyr. If they get dwarven adepts, then arcane isn't very useful, otherwise there's no problem there. Unless arcane affects disciple unit experience too? Not sure.

The organized trait is still very good for them, but even there they dont get the full benefit due to the experience bonuses from command posts not affecting golems. Not suggesting changing the traits for Beeri Bawl, but maybe add something to the command post for golems.

 

[TheJopa]

@ felwar: Luchirup get dwarven adepts insead of normal, however unlike Khazads, they *can* upgrade their adepts to mages and the like. Real reason they have dwarven adepts instead of regular ones is that they have Repair ability to use on golems, siege equipment and ships.

 

[Silverkiss]

I keep meaning to play the Luchuirp long enough to test this but I cant find the time. Do they make regular adepts or dwarven adepts?

The reason I ask is because of the arcane trait on Garrim Gyr. If they get dwarven adepts, then arcane isn't very useful, otherwise there's no problem there. Unless arcane affects disciple unit experience too? Not sure.

The organized trait is still very good for them, but even there they dont get the full benefit due to the experience bonuses from command posts not affecting golems. Not suggesting changing the traits for Beeri Bawl, but maybe add something to the command post for golems.

Arcane trait works for disciple units too, and Lurchuip´s mages aren´t golens, they only get the Repair ability as a bonus to use on golens/ships.

Well, getting advantages because you sacrifice something is more interesting gameplay-wise then just getting advantages.

Then remove the ability of arcane barges of casting fireballs....

Edit: Dang, too slow.

 

[smusebaer]

Religions are very important. And sometimes i am not fast enough developing the right religion. It would be nice, if every one who develops a religion would be granted a disciple unit of the right confession. That would make sure every one can get the religion of his favor.

 

[TheJopa]

I don't understand. You get free disciple when you found religion. Do you mean something else?

 

[SchpailsMan]

I think he means that researching a religious tech should grant you a disciple of that religion if it's already founded. The way it is now, you can discover the perfect way to turn into a tree-hugging forest-dwelling elf-like creature and still be unable to get Leaves to spread to your cities (for example because it's been founded on another continent). Getting a free disciple even when you don't actually found the religion would at least allow you to choose the religion you turn to instead of resorting to your neighbours' research path. I'm personnally in two minds about this change, but it's definetely worth thinking about.

 

[richieelias]

If you want leaves bad enough: Go to the other continent, pick a fight, steal a city, build a disciple, and take it back to your capitol.

That's the price you pay for not founding the religion first. They spent the research to get the tech first, so they get the religion. If you want it too, you'll have to either wait until it expands to your city naturally (shouldnt take all that long), or go over there and take it. Seems exactly how it should be to me.

 

[smusebaer]

@SchpailsMan exactly!
@richieelias I don´t think, that a technology makes sense, when only the first developer gains something. Religion ist essential in this mod. When you for example try to develop your religion, and another player is a few rounds quicker it is very likely that you don´t get any religion. Even if you are lucky, Dwarfs with message from the deep is very strange.