FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Kael]

Here's an idea which occured to me just last night, so my appologies in advance for any obvious flaws I've missed. Chances are it will work only under the proposed "metals" promotion system hinted at in the 0.16 changes. So at least there's plenty of time to contemplate the idea. Here it is:

1) Allow all "mundane" units to be built in any city without the need for a special building. For example, Axemen could be built in any of your cities even if it did not feature a Training Yard.

2) Keep the special building types. Cities that raise such a building will get a +% bonus when creating the cooresponding unit types. For example, a Training Yard would grant +30% production when building Axement (plus the current 1 exp).

3) Units built in cities with the correct building type would be given access to the "metals" line of promotions. Units created in cities w/o those buildings would not, as they would be presumed to be using crude gear improvised by the locals. Since the whole "metals" thing is up in the air it's hard to get more specific than that.

4) "Mundane" units are defined to be tier-1 through tier-3 without any limitations on quantity, and without any spell-casting ability at all. (Thus excluding Amurite Longbowmen and Calabim Moroi, for example.)

Rationale

First off, it sort of makes sesne that any major population center should be able to round up a bunch of ne'er-do-wells, shove some long sticks topped with pointy bits of metal into their hands, and call them Pikemen. And we've all seen enough movies to know this alone is sufficien. For if the defenders just learn to stomp down hard on the non-pointy end, and their hearts are pure, the dastardly enemy cavalry will cooperate by impaling themselves on said pointy bits. Of course The Kid who got married just this morning will bite the dust, but his death will fill the defenders' throats will cries of fury as they hack down the fleeing enemy. So of course it "makes sense" to be able to build various unit types most anywhere.

But more importantly, this will act to even the score a bit between manufactured units and summoned units. If a caster can summon a replacement unit every turn, I don't think it is unreasonable to give cities a break when it comes to building replacements for combat losses.

The easiest way to do this of course would be to simple reduce the cost for all units. And of course that is a viable option. That's why I say this option probably makes sense only if the "metals" approach is adpted n a later version.

The metals pilot only applies to mercenaries and the doviello in 0.16. I picked the dovillo for a few reasons, mostly because they arent designed to be builders. So a mechanic that made infrasturture less important made sense for them. Also the Doviello don't use training buildings so this made for a nice alternative.

We will see what the feedback is and decide where to go from there. Im not sure if having strength 6 Warriors with mithril weapons and strength 7 Berserkers with no weapons make sense (and all the exploits and possibilites that implies).

I do know that the metals system is easier on the ai (who often finds itself unable to compete because it doesn't have access to critical resources).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

The metals pilot only applies to mercenaries and the doviello in 0.16. I picked the dovillo for a few reasons, mostly because they arent designed to be builders. So a mechanic that made infrasturture less important made sense for them. Also the Doviello don't use training buildings so this made for a nice alternative.

We will see what the feedback is and decide where to go from there. Im not sure if having strength 6 Warriors with mithril weapons and strength 7 Berserkers with no weapons make sense (and all the exploits and possibilites that implies).

I do know that the metals system is easier on the ai (who often finds itself unable to compete because it doesn't have access to critical resources).

As usual I take a simple idea and make it overly complicated. The basic idea of course is just to make manufactured units a bit easier to build compared to summoned units. The easiest way to do this is just to reduce the cost of each unit. An alternative method is to require investment in a special building to accomplish the savings. Ether way will tend to benefit civilizations which cannot rely so much upon summoned units as do others.

I have to admit I do not fully understand where you're going with the metals system. I did recall though, that you said you might change the entire game over to that system depending upon how well it worked. If that day comes to pass some further alterations along these lines might pan out.

 

[Kael]

As usual I take a simple idea and make it overly complicated. The basic idea of course is just to make manufactured units a bit easier to build compared to summoned units. The easiest way to do this is just to reduce the cost of each unit. An alternative method is to require investment in a special building to accomplish the savings. Ether way will tend to benefit civilizations which cannot rely so much upon summoned units as do others.

I have to admit I do not fully understand where you're going with the metals system. I did recall though, that you said you might change the entire game over to that system depending upon how well it worked. If that day comes to pass some further alterations along these lines might pan out.

Its pretty simple, this is the current strength of the Doviello melee units:

Warrior = 2
Axeman = 3
Battlemaster (Maceman) = 5
Pikeman = 4
Berserker = 8
Phalanx = 11
Immortal = 8

If any of these units are in a city with a Forge (for Copper or Iron) or a Weaponsmith (for Mithril) they will automatically get the appropriate following promotion:

Bronze weapons = +1 Strength
Iron Weapons = +2 Strength, +10% vs units with Bronze weapons
Mithril Weapons = +4 strength, +10% vs units with Iron weapons

These do not stack (so if a unit with iron weapons enters a city with a weaponsmith and mithril he loses his iron weapons promotion and gains the mithril weapons promotion).

So if you take your axeman into a city with a forge and access to iron he becomes a 5 strength axeman with +10% vs bronze weapon units.

Likewise you can builf berserker's without access to any metal resources, they are just tiny strength 8 berserkers. Of if you only had access to copper they would be strength 9 berserkers, better than nothing, but still not as good as your neighbors iron access strength 10 berserkers with +10% vs your bronze berserkers.

 

[Quetz]

Cant wait to try that out.

On a side note, any chance of either of these things happening?

1) Please, please make Shadows hidden nationality, if you havent yet.. so annoying spotting them while they are sabotaging improvements, but you cant kill em if you dont want to declare war...

2) Druids seem a bit overpowered... Almost as much as rangers, although you can only build 3. Any chance of lowering their str considerably (they have guardian vines and tigers, after all) and maybe reducing their movement points to 1?

Again, that metals system looks like its going to be really cool. Can't wait to try it.

 

[Maniac]

I'd make Druids require Nature mana.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Its pretty simple, this is the current strength of the Doviello melee units:

Warrior = 2
Axeman = 3
Battlemaster (Maceman) = 5
Pikeman = 4
Berserker = 8
Phalanx = 11
Immortal = 8

If any of these units are in a city with a Forge (for Copper or Iron) or a Weaponsmith (for Mithril) they will automatically get the appropriate following promotion:

Bronze weapons = +1 Strength
Iron Weapons = +2 Strength, +10% vs units with Bronze weapons
Mithril Weapons = +4 strength, +10% vs units with Iron weapons

These do not stack (so if a unit with iron weapons enters a city with a weaponsmith and mithril he loses his iron weapons promotion and gains the mithril weapons promotion).

So if you take your axeman into a city with a forge and access to iron he becomes a 5 strength axeman with +10% vs bronze weapon units.

Likewise you can builf berserker's without access to any metal resources, they are just tiny strength 8 berserkers. Of if you only had access to copper they would be strength 9 berserkers, better than nothing, but still not as good as your neighbors iron access strength 10 berserkers with +10% vs your bronze berserkers.

This sounds really cool. It seems like this should be a workable system. I do see your point about pimped-out Warriors compared to bargain-basement Berserkers. It'd be much better to build 6 STR Pimp Warriors for 25 compared to 8 STR Naked Zerkerz for 200 . A tweak or two might be enough to resolve the issue.

e.g. would it be possible/desireable to add a unit level requirement to the upgrades? A lv 1 unit could get Copper gear, but the mithril equipemt doesn't get issued to any unit with less than 17 exp. (or whatever exp). That would limit weirdness like spammed milthril-toting militia, because STR 2 units don't have a bright experience-gaining future when tier-4 uits are running around.

For another e.g. my proposal seems to work pretty well with the metals system. Let any 'mundane' unit can be built in any city. Change existing buildings such as stables into a manufacturing bonus and a small starting experience bonus. If there's no Forge/metals in the city of creation, it starts out weak. If there is no special training facility in the city it takes longer to create a less-trained new unit.

This system reduces the Zerging Pimp Warriors Syndrome because there is no training building for Warriors. There are training buildings for the other unit types. That will narrow the STR/ comparisons between unit types. Net result is to discourage ZPW Syndrome, but not to totally eliminate the option.

Well, as always, offered as food for thought.

 

[Kael]

This sounds really cool. It seems like this should be a workable system. I do see your point about pimped-out Warriors compared to bargain-basement Berserkers. It'd be much better to build 6 STR Pimp Warriors for 25 compared to 8 STR Naked Zerkerz for 200 . A tweak or two might be enough to resolve the issue.

e.g. would it be possible/desireable to add a unit level requirement to the upgrades? A lv 1 unit could get Copper gear, but the mithril equipemt doesn't get issued to any unit with less than 17 exp. (or whatever exp). That would limit weirdness like spammed milthril-toting militia, because STR 2 units don't have a bright experience-gaining future when tier-4 uits are running around.

For another e.g. my proposal seems to work pretty well with the metals system. Let any 'mundane' unit can be built in any city. Change existing buildings such as stables into a manufacturing bonus and a small starting experience bonus. If there's no Forge/metals in the city of creation, it starts out weak. If there is no special training facility in the city it takes longer to create a less-trained new unit.

This system reduces the Zerging Pimp Warriors Syndrome because there is no training building for Warriors. There are training buildings for the other unit types. That will narrow the STR/ comparisons between unit types. Net result is to discourage ZPW Syndrome, but not to totally eliminate the option.

Well, as always, offered as food for thought.

Its possible but that would require an optimal system of makiing a unit, going out and leveling him, and then bringing him back to town when he has the required level for the new equipment. Which I dont think would that fun in practice.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I'd make Druids require Nature mana.

I'd like to echo that (as well as the Shadows request). In fact one more radical thought occured to me would be to require mana types for all units that have spell casting or quasispell-casting ability. Priests being by far the most significant unit in this category. e.g. a Priest of Leaves would have the potential to learn spells in Nature and Life, but not until the nation owns a Nature and/or a Life node.

Note this would pose a minor obsticle to the inventor of a religion, because the Holy City building grants the primary mana type.

Other units in this class would be Fire Barges, Amurite Bowmen, Vampires, etc.

Rationale

Um, admittedly most of the reason is just because this 'feels better' to Yours Truely. That's generally not a good enough reason.

 

[Maniac]

Priests being by far the most significant unit in this category. e.g. a Priest of Leaves would have the potential to learn spells in Nature and Life, but not until the nation owns a Nature and/or a Life node.

That would remove the option to follow a religious b-line instead of a mage one though.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Its possible but that would require an optimal system of makiing a unit, going out and leveling him, and then bringing him back to town when he has the required level for the new equipment. Which I dont think would that fun in practice.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is mithril is a reward for those special units that advance that far. In practice wars are separated by peaceful periods. That'd allow for some units to be rotated to the rear, or for the construction of a forward military base. If you're starting wars just to train units up for Mithril, I tihnk you're already in doublewin territory.

Of course such a step would be needed only if Zerging Pimped Warriors were deemed to be a concern. If that concern does not arise, why bother?

 

[Nimbus]

so if a unit with iron weapons enters a city with a weaponsmith and mithril he loses his iron weapons promotion and gains the mithril weapons promotion

What happens if you take your unit with the mithril promotion into a city that has forge and copper, does he lose his mithril promotion and gain the bronze promotion in its place?

 

[Grey Fox]

What happens if you take your unit with the mithril promotion into a city that has forge and copper, does he lose his mithril promotion and gain the bronze promotion in its place?

The unit would never downgrade, once a civ has Iron or Mithril, his units will get that promotion Instead of the Bronze one.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Check out the forge system in the Ancient Mediteranian Mod. It works quite well, I think. It is very similar to this, but no strength bonus. There is Copper, Bronze (requires tin resource), Iron and Steel. The bonuses are something like +10%, +15%, +20%, +25%. That is certainly enough to make them worthwhile -- even +10%makes a big difference. Since the boni are larger in FfH, perhaps you would want to double those.

What about making Elves vulnerable to iron weapons? +25% damage?

 

[subanark]

What I would like to see is a limit to the number of units you can upgrade their weapons to.

E.g.
Mithril - once per resource per 15 turns
Iron - once per resource per 8 turns
Bronze - once per resource per 5 turns

So if you have 2 Iron resources you can upgrade 2 units per 6 turns (this is for the entire civ, not just a city, and you still need to have a forge). This way if you are short on time you can produce a really powerfull warrior with Mithril weapons cheaply, but you couldn't turn out a lot of them, and the Mithril weapon would probably be in better hands for a more powerfull unit.

If you wanted to streamline it more (and make it more complex) you could allow the player to accumulate mithril/iron/bronze resources (up to a moderate limit) which could be spent on forging weapons, or used to rush some buildings.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

I never find that there is enough incentive to early exploration after I've scouted out a few nearby city sites. The bears and giants make scouting, even without raging barbs, usually a one way trip for the scouting unit. I wish there were more benefits to scouting out the countryside. More variety to the bonuses would be nice. If I don't bee-line for units able to capture animals there just isn't anything out there wourth the risk.

 

[Kael]

I never find that there is enough incentive to early exploration after I've scouted out a few nearby city sites. The bears and giants make scouting, even without raging barbs, usually a one way trip for the scouting unit. I wish there were more benefits to scouting out the countryside. More variety to the bonuses would be nice. If I don't bee-line for units able to capture animals there just isn't anything out there wourth the risk.

I consider my inital scouts expendable. If they can go out and get a goody hut or two before they die then they have done their job.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

That would remove the option to follow a religious b-line instead of a mage one though.

Yes and no. If you invent the religion you will own the Holy City building eventually and that will grant the main mana type. Not to mention some civs will have this supplied by their Palace. But yes, there would be games where Priests would not reach full potential until after some node techs were researched or obtained through trade.

I just find Priests, in general, a bit "too attractive" under 0.15j. Why build, say, an Archer when you need a garrison unit, when you can build a Priest instead? The Priest will auto-level and can cast spells. I am always finding my armies full of casters and priests plus whatever handfull of high-exp surviving Warriors from the Barbarian Wars promoted up into Commando Macemen. Priests are tough enough to fight in combat, and they cast lv2 spells right out of the gate. And if you do build too many, you can turn them into Temples So I keep building them instead of conventional units. I'm a sucker for a bargain.

Since I find myself so often knee-deep in clerics I tend to offer suggestions that downgrade Priests some. I am a weak man. Only the Design Team can stop this compulsion I have!

 

[Maniac]

Good news then! Priests have been downgraded to strength 4.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I never find that there is enough incentive to early exploration after I've scouted out a few nearby city sites. The bears and giants make scouting, even without raging barbs, usually a one way trip for the scouting unit. I wish there were more benefits to scouting out the countryside. More variety to the bonuses would be nice. If I don't bee-line for units able to capture animals there just isn't anything out there wourth the risk.

I agree with Kael that if you get one or two huts, it is generally worth it. Plus, it is one of the most atmospheric parts of the game. Starting out in a world much, much more powerful than you. You can easily get unlucky and get killed by a hill giant but there is also opportunity to acquire great things...

It would be nice if there were some sort of "Trick Ork" promotion that gave you a 50% chance (or whatever) of not being attacked by a sentient Barbarian (as opposed to animals) even when they are near by. Perhaps higher against stupid barbarians and lower against smarter ones). Again, I think this would add to the adventuring atmosphere of the early game...

 

[Sureshot]

Aggressive or Raiders, one of the unit benefits of these should apply to mounted units.. its silly that its better for hippus to go the melee line since they atleast start with combat 1 and commando (not to mention that even with the changes the mounted line wont be worth it)