FfH2 0.15 Changes

[Kael]

0.15 will be our post-warlords patch. Meaning we will be stealing a ton of unit/building art. I really don't think there is much we can use from it, outside of art. But I will be really interested to see what you guys think.

What else would you guys like to see added/removed/changed in 0.15?

Im considering the following:

1. Remove Palisades.
2. Remove Gambling House (maybe it requires the consumption civic instead?).
3. Complete Chalids building rebalance.
4. Get the Node to a final form (benifits of multiple nodes?, nodes revert to raw mana on culture exchange, nodes dont revent to raw mana on pillage).
5. iCombat adjstments stay through conversion/upgrade.

 

[wilboman]

I never use the gambling house, anyway, or Palisades for that matter. So if you remove them, I won't feel the pinch.

 

[Corlindale]

Is the Gambling house the one that gives happy faces for each 10% of income to gold?(I keep getting it mixed up with the other "money-improvement" that comes at the same time. I actually quite like this building, and its usually one I try to build in all cities once I start going into the serious development phase in the late game to prepare for The War to End All Wars. Restricting it to Consumption would probably make good sense, though.

I never build Palisades, though.

 

[Chalid]

Oh the gambling hous is really a biggi. It allows the huge cities later on due to the gold->happiness conversion. If it would be connected to consumpiton it would make that civic really worthwile.

Actually i really do like that mechanic very much so i would be sad if it got cut (the mechanic).

Nr. 5: Do you use the convert() function to convert units? Should be a one line to include it there. It is used on upgrade, too so this is a easy fix.

It gets of course more complicated if you "convert" units manually in Python.


P.S. comes Warlords with a new .exe. And is there a new SDK included?

 

[woodelf]

Palisades can surely go. I build Gambling Houses late in the game so maybe they should come later to give some differentiation from Money Changers?

Can we lower the cost of lighthouses?

 

[Kael]

Oh the gambling hous is really a biggi. It allows the huge cities later on due to the gold->happiness conversion. If it would be connected to consumpiton it would make that civic really worthwile.

Actually i really do like that mechanic very much so i would be sad if it got cut (the mechanic).

K, I will keep it and have it require consumptionism.

Nr. 5: Do you use the convert() function to convert units? Should be a one line to include it there. It is used on upgrade, too so this is a easy fix.

It gets of course more complicated if you "convert" units manually in Python.

I will check it out.

P.S. comes Warlords with a new .exe. And is there a new SDK included?

Yes.

 

[Kael]

Okay, Ive been thinking a lot about the relationship between mana nodes and spells. A good system needs to address the following points:

1. What decides what spheres an adept can learn on level-up?

2. What is the advantage of having a mana node?

3. What is the advantage of having multiple sources of the same mana type?

4. If you require mana for an adept to learn spells what about adepts in civs that dont have mana?

Current system:

1. An adept can pick any sphere on level-up.
2. They grant free spheres.
3. I would like to have some wonders that require multiple nodes of the same type but none are implemented yet.
4. Mana isnt required for adepts to learn spells.

Proposed system:

1. An adept can only learn spheres his civ has mana resources for.
2. Gives your adepts more spell options on level-up.
3. 1 resource gives adepts the ability to learn the spell, 2 resources give adepts that sphere for free, 3 resources give rank 1 and 2 of that sphere for free, 4 resources give rank 1, 2 and 3 for free.
4. Creation of a couple "resource-less" ranks of spells. Maybe metamagic is brought in as a generic sphere anyone can learn.

Challenges:

1. Would have to add a bonus requirement to promotions.
2. May be hard on the AI who would spend its points on extensions and combat upgrades instead of waiting for spheres.

 

[Kael]

Nr. 5: Do you use the convert() function to convert units? Should be a one line to include it there. It is used on upgrade, too so this is a easy fix.

Switched to using the convert() function. It works great, thanks Chalid.

 

[woodelf]

I like the proposed system better than the current one. I never liked that an adept could learn a sphere upon levelling up. This also makes the +3 mana nodes for a Wonder way more important. The resource less spells are also a good idea. Certain "easy" spells could be lumped into that group.

 

[Chalid]

I would not hard limit the leveling to the nodes. But i would do the following:

Each node you have gives an adept free XP when he learns a according sphere.
A possible formular could be: (min(3,#NrOfManaOfthatSphere)*(Lvl*2+1))/3
So when you have 3 Mana of one Sphere you can Promote there for free (you automatically get enough Xp to Promote another sphere as well)
With 1 or 2 Manas you get a substantial amount of XP but no free promotion.

As compensation the rate with which adepts get XP would be slightly reduced.

 

[Kael]

I would not hard limit the leveling to the nodes. But i would do the following:

Each node you have gives an adept free XP when he learns a according sphere.
A possible formular could be: (min(3,#NrOfManaOfthatSphere)*(Lvl*2+1))/3
So when you have 3 Mana of one Sphere you can Promote there for free (you automatically get enough Xp to Promote another sphere as well)
With 1 or 2 Manas you get a substantial amount of XP but no free promotion.

As compensation the rate with which adepts get XP would be slightly reduced.

Some players are mentioning that the choices a player has when leveling an adept are overwhelming (to many spheres). And your proposed system may go unnoticed by players who wouldnt realize they were getting bonus xp, or had to micromanage their units to check and see what nodes they have before they level.

I do like the concept of having it be easier for adepts to learn spheres that you have nodes for. Maybe the answer is that they can learn all spheres they have a node for and 1 random sphere?

 

[Corlindale]

How about something like this system:

No mana: Adepts can choose any kind of sphere, but the maximum they can get without mana is rank I.

1 mana of a given type: Adepts get that sphere for free when trained, and when upgraded to mage can gain rank II in that sphere.

2 mana of a given type: Adepts get rank I for free when trained, and rank II for free when upgraded to Mage.(Note: Any adepts you have that does not have rank I will not get rank II when upgraded to Mage). Adepts can buy rank III in that sphere when upgraded to mage.

3 mana of a given type: Adepts get rank I for free when trained, rank II for free when upgraded to mage, and rank III for free when upgraded to Archmage(Note: Same restriction as above apply).

4+ mana of a given type: Gives all casters a +20% bonus when using spells of that sphere, affects both Arcane and Divine casters. Bonus could be cumulative for each mana node beyond 3.

It's a bit less restrictive than the proposed system(which I personally think is a bit too much, considering that people who go for the Tower of Mastery cannot afford to make several nodes of one type), but it still makes mana resources very crucial to success and promotes specialization in certain spheres.

 

[Kael]

I want to reduce the amount of initial adept upgrade choices. What about the following except every civ starts with 3 mana resources instead of the current 1.

So the Bannor could start with a Spirit, Law and Enchantment resources. The Clam of Embers could start with Nature and 2 Fire mana resources. That way we could diversify each of the casters from each. Giving begining casters some choices without overwhelming them with all 14 nodes and force players to use mana nodes to give them new mana options.

Proposed system:

1. An adept can only learn spheres his civ has mana resources for.
2. Gives your adepts more spell options on level-up.
3. 1 resource gives adepts the ability to learn the spell, 2 resources give adepts that sphere for free, 3 resources give rank 1 and 2 of that sphere for free, 4 resources give rank 1, 2 and 3 for free.
4. Creation of a couple "resource-less" ranks of spells. Maybe metamagic is brought in as a generic sphere anyone can learn.

 

[Chalid]

or we use the sphere shema and you need neighboring manas to promote.

Giving three manas to each civ seems to much. Hinting at victory.

If we get it in that each sphere tells which spell it gives the choice should be much easier, too, and this might simply solve the problem.

For the Tempus More scenario i would choose your way through.

 

[Chalid]

Ah just had another Idea. How about needing a basic promotion to buy the first spell sphere (those could give the most basic spells).

So your adept can promote Necromancy, Aleration, Divination or elementarism as first Promotion, where each one enables 3 to 4 spell spheres.

I think it would seem logical to the casual player, too.

Iy you learn elementarism and have a fire node you get the fire promotion for free. And then on like corlindale said.

 

[Kael]

Ah just had another Idea. How about needing a basic promotion to buy the first spell sphere (those could give the most basic spells).

So your adept can promote Necromancy, Aleration, Divination or elementarism as first Promotion, where each one enables 3 to 4 spell spheres.

I think it would seem logical to the casual player, too.

Iy you learn elementarism and have a fire node you get the fire promotion for free. And then on like corlindale said.

That is intuitive, which is good. But assuming we had those promotions require the techs of the same name we would need to juggle the tech tree a little bit to move then earlier.

But the more I think about it the more I like requiring the mana to learn the spheres and letting each civ start with 3 mana types. Im going to put together a test version that works this way and get it out to you guys.

Chalid, did you have any SDK changes you want to check into 0.15? Im changing the SDK right now, but if you have some changes once I get my current batch in I can get you an up to date copy, lockdown my end and give you the chance to add your stuff.

 

[Chalid]

If this weekend some time finally (dooing a talk tomorrow) so i can prepare the things i have that weekend. So it would be good if you get the actual copy up.

 

[Kael]

If this weekend some time finally (dooing a talk tomorrow) so i can prepare the things i have that weekend. So it would be good if you get the actual copy up.

Sounds good. I'll try to have everything wrapped up by end of day Friday and uploaded for you.

 

[loki1232]

I really like Kael's proposed system where each civ starts with 3 nodes. Also, i had an idea for a dip bonus if you use mana of that civ's type. (using law mana ggives you a dip bonus with the bannor.)

 

[woodelf]

That sounds fair loki since if you use death magic the good guys hate you bigtime.