FfH2 0.22 Balance Feedback

[Sureshot]

As a halfway point to Hyborem creating a new landmass, perhaps instead all Water tiles in his borders turn to the hell version of deserts (basically the water boils and turns into a sea of fire, since hell deserts produce fire).

This way, if he starts on a small island, or some useless fringe city up in the ice, he'll be creating new land on which to build new cities. Also, if he starts in the new world on a Terra map or just some independent island, it'll eventually connect with the rest of the civs and allow for some scary land invasions (naval invasions are not scary).

 

[Uberness]

After reading the Civilopedia on Mutation came up with a idea for OO and to make it abit more flavor like the other religions, what if you were able to sacrifice units with the mutation promotion similar to the demon's altar but with the slavery civic.
Would be able to turn them into something else such as production, that way you can turn any mutants you deem not worthy into spare parts.

Currently OO doesn't seem to have much *wow* factor to it, just feels like a early game ashen veil or used as a stepping stone towards ashen veil, in my option.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In my games it certainly has a wow factor. I changed the Drown spell so that it works on any melee unit, and modifies the Drown's strength to always be the same as the sacrificed units (with 1 as death damage). This strength carries over when upgraded to Stygian Guards or Eidolons. Also, I made Water walking a targeted spell, which usually also gives out the summoned 3 promotion to prevent too much abuse.

It is by far the strongest military religion (especially for the Calabim).
Perhaps I shouldn't have but the caster.kill() in the code just before I convert the unit, but that fits the flavor and opens up so many cool possibilities. You use this spell on your heroes to make them stronger and to allow the Shrine of the Champion. You can kill the same immortal or Losha repeatedly to get a huge army of super strong water-walking demons, although they don't keep the Immortal promotion. (I'm thinking will probably modify the code so that it at least cost more to drown stronger units)


Sureshot's latest suggestion is quite interesting, but I'm still unsure about it. It would certainly weaken his trade network and ruin his navy (not that he usually builds one, but in Shadow they may become more important). I think we should wait until the Hell versions of the water tiles are in to decide. Personally, I think that hellish seas should fit the OO theme better than the AV. Also, what happens when the Infernals are vanquished? Will the former seas remain desterts forever, or will the waters rush back into their old basins?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

As a halfway point to Hyborem creating a new landmass, perhaps instead all Water tiles in his borders turn to the hell version of deserts (basically the water boils and turns into a sea of fire, since hell deserts produce fire).

This way, if he starts on a small island, or some useless fringe city up in the ice, he'll be creating new land on which to build new cities. Also, if he starts in the new world on a Terra map or just some independent island, it'll eventually connect with the rest of the civs and allow for some scary land invasions (naval invasions are not scary).

That is an excellent idea. Especially if he gets smart enough to build a water node and make those desert tiles useful, otherwise I don't think he'd settle there.
Although it might hurt him commerce wise, so maybe there could be some way to give infernals +2 commerce from flames rather than from coast?

 

[Grey Fox]

It would be nice if Scorch worked on fields of perdition or whatever the Plains replacement is.

And that Desert requirement for example sand lions worked in the Burning Sands, if it doesn't already.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

And that Desert requirement for example sand lions worked in the Burning Sands, if it doesn't already.

That one works.

 

[Sureshot]

That is an excellent idea. Especially if he gets smart enough to build a water node and make those desert tiles useful, otherwise I don't think he'd settle there.
Although it might hurt him commerce wise, so maybe there could be some way to give infernals +2 commerce from flames rather than from coast?

actually, ive found hyborem is much better off not working any tiles and just using specialists.
when i plan to play him i specifically don't research fishing so the city wont auto-choose water tiles (2 commerce and 1 food is worth less than 3 science, or 3 gold, since the 1 food is not useful), and try to get Priesthood for religious discipline, and then scorch all the plains around. Having fiery deserts means less tiles that will be auto-chosen and added defense (his units can move through it, but most of his enemies cannot).

and about him not wanting to build in some spot thats only desert and maybe water: hes an AI, he'll build anywhere that he can lol

 

[Kael]

Incidently in Shadow we will have wilderness areas with different effects. One of these will be the Fane of Lessers, a unique range of plots that occurs in every game (if the infernals are enabled). That area will be all hell tiles and won't be able to be entered by anyone until the Infernals appear. That will be where Hyborem starts, garunteeing him a good starting location and allowing the player to plan based on where Hyborem will show up.

I think that will be fun, will fix a lot of infernal problems, and give us a good opportunity to make sure Hyborems starting location is suitable.

 

[Sureshot]

how big will it be and will other civs culture be able to invade that land? (think of if kurioates built a city on the edge and used a Great bard culture bomb) will people be able to sanctify it?

 

[Grey Fox]

The best would be to make culture unable to take over that terrain until Hyborem has spawned. Or maybe even when he has spawned.

 

[Nimbus]

Incidently in Shadow we will have wilderness areas with different effects. One of these will be the Fane of Lessers, a unique range of plots that occurs in every game (if the infernals are enabled). That area will be all hell tiles and won't be able to be entered by anyone until the Infernals appear. That will be where Hyborem starts, garunteeing him a good starting location and allowing the player to plan based on where Hyborem will show up.

For premade maps, will this be available in the editor, and if so about how much space on a map should be set aside for Hyborem?

 

[Kael]

All good questions, but its just a note in the design doc right now. I have no idea how it will be implemented. I would hope that the area is unassailable by culture (thats most of the point of wilderness areas) and that scenario makers can configure it themselves, but we will be able to see what we can come up with.

 

[Uberness]

Suggestion for a touch of flavor for Clan of Embers, possibly also doviello.

Since there suppose to be a group of barbarians trying to become a civilization to compete with the expanding humans, What if for every 1-3 cities the clan razes, they get a random free technology that the destroyed civilization has learned? sort of like popping a tribal hut, only bigger and defended.

Could be based on amount of cities, and/or population of them, and could increase the amount of cities needed to be razed to get a free technology with every free tech gained that way.

 

[Chip56]

Hmmm...
Might be fun if clan of embers would get a few research points towards a know tech everytime they raze a city.
Could be something like this:
10 researchpoints for every point of population
5 for every building
50 every wonder

of course this numbers would have to be tweaked but it really could be fun.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

This was suggested before generally, with the response being that warfare is generally rewarding enough as it is.
For Clan of Embers specifically, though, it seems quite reasonable to me.

 

[BeefontheBone]

The tweak could be as simple as increasing the Science penalty of the Barbarian trait and having it grant that effect. Previous versions of civ allowed you to learn tech when capping a city, but it was rather too good in many cases. I wouldn't be averse to it as a general inclusion when you capture a civ's capital/palace. You'd have to restrict it somehow, maybe to only once per player (or team, more likely) or to once per <large number of turns>. It'd probably still encourage dogpiling for the spoils when someone's getting beaten on, though. Would need some work, methinks.

 

[Sureshot]

you get a ton of gold when capturing cities anyways, if you have a huge army to achieve this end you usually have a gold rate in the negatives at 100&#37; science, which you can only continue by taking new cities.

generally a similar effect to gaining techs from taking cities, as you get gold, which translates easily into science.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

you get a ton of gold when capturing cities anyways, if you have a huge army to achieve this end you usually have a gold rate in the negatives at 100% science, which you can only continue by taking new cities.

generally a similar effect to gaining techs from taking cities, as you get gold, which translates easily into science.

Yeah, that's the way I see it.

 

[Uberness]

Yes I thought about it being alittle overpowered, but if it was limited to clan, who has a bad science rate and doesn't start with a tech, and limit it so some random tundra city doesn't give you a free tech, and you only learn techs that the defeated civ already knows, it could be worked into something fun.

Something like a combined total of 20 pop has to be razed for the first tech, or 3 cities need to be razed, then 4, 5, 6.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Why is Morgoth's favorite civic Caste System? His civilipedia entry seems to imply that it should be Scholarship.