FfH2 0.32 Balance Feedback

[MagisterCultuum]

Requiring either a Forge or at least the tech that allows forges seems reasonable, since it gives the free buildings. I wouldn't nerf it any more than that though.


I do however think that the City of a Thousand Slums does not belong at Engineering. The tech already has a very good wonder, and it makes no thematic sense. Good Engineering would have prevented slums from ever developing. I still think the most Logical Tech for the City of a Thousand Slums is Taxation. I'm guessing that taxes in a dark fantasy mod would not be progressive taxes but would (like ancient Roman taxes) be much harder on the poor than the rich. That would make them poorer, and force them to live in crowded slums.

 

[Vladesch]

Strategic resources are too rare.
I just completed (resigned) a game with about 12 cities and about 1/2 of one continent. No copper, iron, mithril or incense.
Started another game. Got about 9 cities and over half my continent. No copper or iron and just regular units to defend myself. I guess I should be thankful I had incense, although I never got to use it.

Seems I either have to go ROK or cheat with worldbuilder to have a fighting chance lately.

 

[scutarii]

nox noctis is too influential: only spy line should be invisible for your enemy inside in your cultural borders. Workers, most warriors-they are "common" guys, no reason to be hidden.

 

[Nor'easter]

I do think you should consider reworking the Rites of Oghma in some way: as it stands now, it's a massive investment of time and hammers for an uncertain result.

I hadn't built it in a while, but decided to try in a recent game -- I was playing a Huge Earth 2 map and had around 27% of the world's territory, so I figured I was likely to get at least a few mana nodes. I ended up with only one, and none at all on the Africa-equivalent continent, which is a fairly large continent on that map.

Maybe Rites of Oghma should work in a manner similar to Genesis, i.e., create new mana nodes only within your territory. I think this makes sense from a lore perspective: if you complete a long and expensive ritual dedicated to a particular deity, that deity should reward you and not everybody on the planet, no?

Anyway, the main point is that I'd urge you to rethink how this ritual works for the next version. Thanks. And as always, thanks for an excellent mod!

 

[blacknight]

I too feel that Rites of Oghma is a bit weak. I'd personally like to see every space in your territory have double the chance to spawn a node and every space in the fat cross of the city that built the Rite have three chances (or more). Thus the player that spent all the hammers to build the Rites would actually benefit more on average than everyone else in the game.

 

[blacknight]

After playing another game as the Svartalfar I must say that I feel the elves just synergies much much too strongly with Fellowship of the Leaves. I don't mind that they synergies well, and I don't mind that it seems to be the best choice for the elves (of course they like trees). However, I do mind that it seems to be the only reasonable choice for them, and I do mind how they very easily and very rapidly leave every other civilization in the dust to a degree I am unable to achieve with anyone else. I feel like if I play the elves I am forced to up the difficulty at least two levels to even have a semblance of a challenge.

I would love to see the elves have some reason to even consider another religion every now and then and I feel like this synergy should be nurfed a bit.

I don't know exactly how to do such a nurfing because I have no problem with the elves (minus FoL) or FoL sans elves and think they are both well balanced. They just seem to go together too well.

The only idea I have so far is to ban the elves from having towns (reverse of how the Kuriotates get enclaves) this seems relatively minor, thematically fitting, and would dampen the elven empire-wide-ancient-forest-mega-suburb-preserve-science-machine somewhat.

Cheers, and great mod!

 

[Yaotzin]

FoL per se isn't especially powerful for elves, ancient forests are. So being in FoL for a while then switching works pretty well, as you've gotten a large part of the benefits of being in it already. Svart doing FoL -> Esus is the obvious thematic example. The downside is if you get new forests you need to either switch back again or lose the rather large benefits of ancients. So yeah FoL is a must, but it's not a permanent thing, switching to another religion is a strong strategy too.

As for towns, banning towns would just make farms+specialist econ+aristocracy the optimum setup (some would argue it is anyway). Doubt it would make much difference really.

I'm not sure Elves (Svart especially) are overpowered really, if you leave them alone to research recon+mages they're pretty unkillable (shadowwalking sinister poisoned blade forest 2 assassins/rangers/hero makes attacking somewhat difficult. Nox Noctis makes it impossible, but that thing is totally broken anyway), but that's a fair few beakers, and is mostly a defensive setup. Offensively they're not great. Edit: Actually, defensively they're definitely OP in mid-late game, since they're pretty much unkillable. At least, I can't think of a way to kill the above. I'd prefer the nerf come in a different area though, because the above combo is just so *right*.

Possibly they have a few too many synergies, but in general I'd prefer the other civs got more goodies/better mana etc instead of nerfing them, as they're great fun to play. Svart are powerful because almost all their unique things are good for them, whereas many civs get unique stuff that's pretty mediocre. Few random examples: Ljos archers getting more attack, archers are defensive and suck besides, Amurites getting an assassin with a fairly useless ability, Malakim/Doviello etc getting bonuses to terrains that suck and you want to get rid of.

I'd much prefer those sorts of fairly useless unique features become powerful than Svart's unique features get nerfed to hell.

 

[Darksaber1]

I'd much prefer those sorts of fairly useless unique features become powerful than Svart's unique features get nerfed to hell.

Another way to look at the economic bonuses of Ancient forests is that they get nerfin in hell.

 

[odalrick]

I've changed Forests to -1 food, +2 hammer and -1 commerce; Ancient Forests lose the food penalty. Makes Mining less important for early production and takes away some of the sting of a forest start. The commerce penalty was mostly to make forest cottages slightly less attractive.

I don't really know how it works out for elves yet, as I haven't played them lately.

 

[hbar]

I'm not sure Elves (Svart especially) are overpowered really, if you leave them alone to research recon+mages they're pretty unkillable (shadowwalking sinister poisoned blade forest 2 assassins/rangers/hero makes attacking somewhat difficult. Nox Noctis makes it impossible, but that thing is totally broken anyway), but that's a fair few beakers, and is mostly a defensive setup. Offensively they're not great. Edit: Actually, defensively they're definitely OP in mid-late game, since they're pretty much unkillable. At least, I can't think of a way to kill the above. I'd prefer the nerf come in a different area though, because the above combo is just so *right*.

Spam adepts with blaze. Burn down their woodsman 2/shadowwalking advantage, and suddenly they're a lot less frightening. Once those adepts become air II mages, the whole defensive thing doesn't work anymore.

 

[Yaotzin]

Did they change something? Last I checked ancient forests don't catch fire.

And Svart can get Air II too, better than most, being arcane. So they play defense with hurt units against hurt units, not much changes.

I guess the best option is to nerf Svart econ in some way, without making Ljos useless (Svart are well ahead of Ljos IMO). They're extremely strong defensively, but if you could contain them and outtech them that would be OK. You can't though, because their econ is unmatched. You can't even try to mass pillage really like you could against Ljos, because their style of defense is suited to attacking units even/especially in forests, making pillaging suicidal.

The other problem is that IMO recon is somewhat OP. Both being immune to type-specific promos and being able to get the type-specific promos makes them too versatile and powerful. Svart being very recon oriented then exacerbates that problem.

 

[bluedevil99]

I've seen comments about the Fear promotion before but ran into a game ender last night.

Playing Bannor, founded order, got Fanaticism just as Keelyn summoned Hyboreum. I figure, ok, this is what Crusade is meant for, right? Took a few turns to get my house in order then declared. Rolled through most of Keelyn, Hyboreum declared, then ran into a problem. A huge patch of burning sands blocked me from advancing further into Balsaraph territory, so I'm forced to go after Dis which was right there. Problem is, my stack of 30+ Crusaders, Demagogs, Confessors, etc are all too afraid to attack. Valin dies on the first turn, doing significant damage to Hyboreum, but then EVERYONE else, including Donal, is too afraid to finish him. Literally sat there for about 10 turns trying to attack--I'm now stuck in a war, unable to advance further into enemy territory. By the time I researched KotE and Divination, my economy would be utterly ruined. Game over.

Now, yes, one coud say I should have realized I'd need an adept with courage at some point. But I cannot think of another time a single promotion on an enemy unit literally ended a game for me, and especially with the demon-slaying Bannor am surprised there is no other way to counter fear.

 

[DemonMaster]

Couldn't agree more regarding the "fear factor" issue. Some folks say that there is a chance that a unit may overcome his fear and attack, but I'm guessing that that unit needs to be so much stronger than the fear-causing unit that it becomes ridiculous.

I once got stuck in a war with Hyborem and I had no Spirit mana and I had no raw mana left within my borders. Now I know better, so I (sadly, it has become that important) always built a spirit mana (if I got a raw mana node within my borders that is). I can't count on that I will be able to get some spirit mana due to trade. Normally if a war goes badly you can defend yourself and with time (and perhaps the right techs, builds, and promotions) you can at least get peace or perhaps try to get a city or two from him by sneaking around his SoD. But with Hyborem it is different, he usually only has one city so you cant "fool" the AI to sue for peace by taking a city or two and if you cant beat him you are stuck in an endless war (then your economy crash due to the extremely high ww).

 

[Darksaber1]

Donal Lugh, Greatest Demon Slayer in the world, DOSN"T HAVE COURAGE??!!!! Okay, something weird with that.

 

[bluedevil99]

In my situation, I was surprised that the morale promotion given by Bannor Flagbearers didn't work to counter fear. For sure, more units like Crusaders and Donal himself should be tagged as fear immune, even perhaps all units with the hero promotion.

Another alternative that I favor is for good heros to have Courage as a selectable promotion (possibly able to cast it on others in their stack) in much the same way that evil heros like Saverous and Hyboreum can select fear.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

You can't though, because their econ is unmatched.

What? They don't have an economic trait, or any UBs to help with that.

Forest building is nice, though somewhat dampened by the slower work speeds.

 

[bluedevil99]

FoL per se isn't especially powerful for elves, ancient forests are. So being in FoL for a while then switching works pretty well, as you've gotten a large part of the benefits of being in it already. Svart doing FoL -> Esus is the obvious thematic example. The downside is if you get new forests you need to either switch back again or lose the rather large benefits of ancients. So yeah FoL is a must, but it's not a permanent thing, switching to another religion is a strong strategy too.

Why switch though? Around the time I'd switch to Esus, I could be building Kithra and Duin, and later on Yvain. Sure, you could build Duin later on, but he's sooo much more fun earlier on.

Elves with FoL ARE overpowered, IMO; I'm seldom in a SP game with Ljosfar where they aren't at or near the top of the leaderboard. I actually don't mind this, as it's one of the few civs where the AI can really leverage its advantages. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to do nearly as well with the Svartalfar, as it seems to prioritize FoL a little less.

In the hands of a human player, though, the Svartalfar are just deadly. Duin, Kithra, Alzakhan, and a horde of rangers and satyrs with HN is just sick. It's actually funny, with raging barbs on, to just kill everything and sit back while the barbs conquer the world for you

 

[MetalMilitia-]

The gold required for the khazad bonus from the dwarven vault does not scale with gamespeed. With the increased gold gained from huts at marathon getting overflowing early on is way too easy.

 

[Justicar333]

I've got a grumble over the metorite event. It always comes very early in the game, and doesn't seem to occur twice. End result being even with rushing for alteration, never gotten a enchantment node up in time for the staff. This means only the races who have it from their palace get the staff, and they don't have any units that thematically would use it. Is there any way to tweak this, and allow civs with spell caster heroes a chance?

 

[Blackmantle]

On Ancient Chants nonfeature / Mysticism:

You should perhaps consider moving Pagan Temples to Ancient Chants.
Whould give the Tech a Value other than Prerequisite for other interesting techs. Get Mysticism a little bit down (but still beeing very viable with Elder Councils much better than Pagan Temples which seldomly get built because the options abound at the time you get Mysticism), move Religions a tad earlier if really desired (the tradeoff whould be quite hefty though with a much later academy. But could be worth the effort + help elf / dwarf AIs by reducing the time they take to beline their religion) and most importantly give more options for building in the very early part of the game.
+ it whould be very much in line with flavor (don't know anything which whould fit the tech better than ancient chanting performed at pagan temples).

Mysticism is overpacked anyways (as is Education but i don't know a good suggestion for that other than the thing with cottages earlier with -1 yield compared to now upgraded with +1 at Education.)