Finally getting rid of the GL crutch... by editing its properties.

[morchuflex]

Hello.

Ever since I started playing pangeas on Emperor, I fall behind in tech and can't help either trying to build the Great Library or to conquer it. I want to get rid of this crutch.
Unfortunately, I can't, at least not willingly: after all, if I CAN build or grab it, why should I abstain from it?
This WoW is absurdly powerful. In my last game, it saved me once again: I was desperately behind in tech when the Chinese conveniently completed it in their closest (2 tiles away!) and most lightly defended city. Two turns later, I was dominating the game. Absurd!

So, I've come to a radical decision: I'm going to edit the GL properties to make it far less powerful.

I have two ideas: either make it the equivalent of an ancient TOE (+2 immediate techs),
OR make it an additional "double research in city" wonder (like NU or CO).
In either case I think it should be priced at 200 s.

Comments? Suggestions?

 

[Darix]

2 immediate tech for only 200 shield? Even though this is done in late ancient or early middle age, that's still too good.

What about keep it at 400 shields and give it 2 immediate techs + 50% research bonus in that city?

 

[Darix]

One thing that I have to agree is that the great library really changed the game. With or without it makes a big different in high level game. If you can time it right and get it in deity game, you can take your time to set up your cities and building armies. When you finally get the eduction, you should have library set up everywhere and you can push 100% science to even compete with AIs.
Without GL, I have to have a super good start playing expansion civ (and get couple free settlers in the beginning) to be able to catch up in tech in early middle age. Else, I will be lucky if I can take the lead in early industrial age.

I really think they should change GL in civ 4.

 

[mikehunt]

didn't it work slightly differently in civ1 and possibly civ2? it's been so long I can't remember for sure but I thought it was changed a bit
if so maybe go back to the civ1 version

 

[Own]

it's impossible to win on sid without it, and very hard to win without it on diety. i play on diety and like to build it, so im almost always the french, for the single reason of starting with masonry for palace prebuild and alphabet to get closer to literature. Bamspeedy's story of beyond sid taught me how good the french are for getting the gl

 

[Darix]

You can definitely win in deity level without GL, but the difference is huge. Try an expansion civ and if you can scout out fast (especially with inca's UU) and getting a lot of goodies huts and getting some good trades, you can have tech lead in early middle age without GL. But the point is GL is making such a huge difference in high difficulty level, it should be changed. You can't have a wonder with such a huge impact to make the game not balanced. Well, that's only my opinion.

 

[morchuflex]

But the point is GL is making such a huge difference in high difficulty level, it should be changed. You can't have a wonder with such a huge impact to make the game not balanced.

Yes, my point exactly, and why I want to change it.
However, I'm no programmer, so I can only give it properties that are available through the C3C editor. That means, the properties of another wonder. Hence my propositions to make it an ancient equivalent of TOE or CO or NU.
I'd prefer the second choice for the sake of realism: libraries do contribute to scientific activity, but they don't help making discoveries. Scholars are hardly inventors...
I maintain that the cost should be 200 s. TOE costs only 600 and is available at a time when your most productive cities have at least x3 the production of your best ancient city. Copernicus and Newton cost 400.

The GL was less powerful in previous installations of Civ because it became obsolete the very moment you or anyone else discovered the tech that caused the obsolescence. In Civ3, it only becomes obsolete when you get that tech (education) and on the following turn.
This allows the well-known exploit: if you're already far behind in tech, don't try to compete; make zero research, concentrate on infrastructure, don't get education, and capture the GL as late in the game as you can: you'll get whatever the AI may have, including techs that are way beyond education. In a recent game, playing that way, I got every tech until the early industrial age. What a spoiler!

 

[Jopedamus I]

Just don't build or capture it. It's called self-discipline, man!
I dont use GL and manage to win most of my deity-games. In fact, best games for me are emperor or demigod-level, where I don't make artillery or armies(because AI can't use them properly) and I play Pangaea map(because AI is so hopeless using sea vessels). That way I have to use different strategies.
But I agree that GL is broken, but so are unfortunately many other aspects in this otherwise great game...

 

[morchuflex]

Just don't build or capture it. It's called self-discipline, man!

Well, I don't generally lack self-discipline at work, but I play Civ for enjoyment! I play almost every day from 7 to 11 pm and it's a great relief after a day of hard work. Needless to say, my self-discipline capacity is exhausted by this time of the day...
Besides, if you had to abstain from everything that imbalances the game, you should simply abstain from playing Civ. Why? Because a Civ game is a conflict between 2 different imbalances: a human player who makes a smarter use of normal rules, and a dumb AI that cheats like hell to compensate.

 

[Jopedamus I]

That's right. Everyone should play civ in such a way that she/he can have maximum enjoyment out of it. And I didn't mean to critisize your self-discipline at all. That's why I put in there.
And yes, AI is dumb, put you can always play SID and use all dirty tricks that you know and there is still a VERY good chance that you will lose the game.

 

[soul_warrior]

why not edit it to give you: 1 free tech, 50% science increase in that city and possibly add in a scientific GA (not that it is worth much, but still)
you can price it at 300 or 400 shields (my choice would be 400, with the sci GA, 300 without)

 

[morchuflex]

why not edit it to give you: 1 free tech, 50% science increase in that city and possibly add in a scientific GA (not that it is worth much, but still)
you can price it at 300 or 400 shields (my choice would be 400, with the sci GA, 300 without)

I can't do that. The editor only allows me to give it whatever properties belong to another wonder. It has to be either 2 free techs (like TOE) or +100% science (like CO or NU).

Furthermore, there's a bug in C3C and scientific GA simply doesn't work: when you use a SGL to trigger it, nothing happens. In theory, the time needed to get the next tech is shortened, but it's an illusion: you will just be stuck on "one turn left" for several turns.
Example: suppose the F1 screen says you need 12 turns to get Gunpowder. Now, use a SGL to trigger the "Age of science". Hit F1 again: now you're supposed to get there in, say, 9 turns. But at the end of turn 8, you won't get gunpowder. The advisor will say it's still 1 turn ahead. Same thing on turns 10 and 11. You'll only get it on turn 12, just as you would without the SGA.
This bug has been known for a long time and noone at Firaxis seems to care about it. :thumbdown

 

[rajwhitehall]

My vote is 100% science in the city, obsolete with printing press, and cost equal 200.

I can't do that. The editor only allows me to give it whatever properties belong to another wonder. It has to be either 2 free techs (like TOE) or +100% science (like CO or NU)...

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Both alternatives are much more powerfull than the original lib.

These options will alow you to research techs that the AI does not have, giving you very good trait bait.

The original one was completely redundant. On emperor you can normally research faster than the AI. If you cannot, learn to trade and even without research, you can have everything the AI has.

 

[plarq]

Follow my link in my sig to Emperor(No Research),which is a great training succession game.