financial vs organized

wolfblue

Warlord
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
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just wondering what the common oppinion is on these two.

in my view financial is better early game esspecialy near the water.

Organized is better late game especially with large empires. also comes with a bunch of cheap buildings.

since i am a fan of creative i am mostly looking at william van orange vs zaro yabo or who ever that ethiopia guy is.
 
Organized, changes how usefull it is on difficulities as well, which might shrew up any debate given that Financial is kinda static across the difficulities.
 
just wondering what the common oppinion is on these two.
Depends what level you play.

Organized gets better as your bonuses go away, and it gets better as you get better at conquering enemies earlier.

since i am a fan of creative i am mostly looking at william van orange vs zaro yabo or who ever that ethiopia guy is.
IMHO both are great. Play some games as each.

Be careful, though. Creative is an addictive trait.
 
I've always been a financial fan, and that goes for all difficulties.

Organized can be said to help all play styles and that Financial "forces" you to cottages. I put it the other way around, Financial allows you to cottage on almost all maps.

Financial gives you that crucial advantage in the early and midgame. Organized may save you a lot when your big, or like I say: Organized is great when you're already winning. Financial helps you win.
 
hmmm i would say it depends on how large ur empire is (and ofc how wattery the map is) I dont love any of those traits (plz dont kill meh xD) and since im a quite defensive ruler i go for industrial or philosophical if i wanna do specialist economy ^^ expansive is a nice trait to have

EDIT: i got a shield now so u cant kill me!
 
hmmm i would say it depends on how large ur empire is (and ofc how wattery the map is) I dont love any of those traits (plz dont kill meh xD) and since im a quite defensive ruler i go for industrial or philosophical if i wanna do specialist economy ^^ expansive is a nice trait to have

EDIT: i got a shield now so u cant kill me!

Well, a lot does depend on play style. I prefer a simple cottage economy with a GP farm, so I'll go financial. With the possible exception of Rome, Persia, and Egypt. With the empire I get from leveraging their killier UU's, Organized is a gamesaver (pity Egyptian leaders aren't Organized).

Both of your favorite traits are the best for an OCC. Give an OCC a try if you haven't already!
 
Lol u guesed it yeah i do OCC a lot
 
whats OCC?

I am a culture fan ecause i hate bothering with monuments. I used to think culture was crap even late game but I think its still usefull in when conquering cities and you have to get your culture spread faster... every little bit helpts.

I have been a creative/financial fan but i really think i am going to swap to creative/organized there is something to say about 6 half priced buildings. and an effective 75% off maintenance costs. (thats like getting half off ralithus with any civ you play) plus i love corporations so freemarket is a must (environmentalism if i am forced into it) cant stand state property when my civ gets too big
 
Organized is not that good for late game if you are planning to go SP. However, the time before Communism is usually a very decisive stage of the game anyway.
 
in my view financial is better early game esspecialy near the water.

Organized is better late game especially with large empires. also comes with a bunch of cheap buildings.

Organized is not bad early game, on the contrary. It allows early expansion to continue longer and farther than normally, be it by war or by REX. Cheap courthouses and reduced price civics are early game bonuses not to turn your nose up at.
 
Organized is not bad early game, on the contrary. It allows early expansion to continue longer and farther than normally, be it by war or by REX. Cheap courthouses and reduced price civics are early game bonuses not to turn your nose up at.

Excellent advice.

I used to play FIN but now consider it 'cheating' - it's way over-powered. Org is my drug of choice, I find my early game without it can be a real struggle. I've started playing random leaders now to learn some new strategies (and not doing very well at it :()
 
They're both excellent, most high-level players respect both. 'FIN is overpowered, ORG is just fine' is unsupportable in my opinion and probably a form of perception bias.

ORG saves roughly c+0.2p-1 pre-inflation upkeep on default civics and 1.25c+0.3p-1.75 on medium civics, where c is your number of cities and p is your total population. Both scale more or less linearly with empire size, discrepancies are player-made ('1 military city, 2 miscellaneous production cities, 1 GP farm, rest on cottages' vs. '1 Commerce Capital, rest on production/specialist hybrids')

For a looser comparison, a FIN leader typically needs to use more than 40% of their population for working commerce tiles to break even with ORG in the early and midgame (later on, average city size, ratio of gold multipliers to inflation and especially civics become hard to predict: Nationalism and Pacifism instead of Bureaucracy and Organised Religion cut ORGs effectiveness in half).

In my opinion, this is quite a lot and considering that ORG also has some useful building discounts I generally prefer it. On water maps, my experience is that fast lighthouses more than make up for the higher percentage of commerce tiles worked with my preferred playstyles.

Endgame effectiveness depends on the chosen playstyle - FIN is good when we're trying to break rushbuying: commerce improvements and gold multipliers reach their peak in the Renaissance, making it possible to skip industrialisation entirely and send everyone to the cottages and windmills.
ORG can be ahead in other playstyles, but it usually loses ground because cheaper civics are often more attractive in the late game, and because gold multipliers tend to rise more quickly than inflation.
 
Do you mean for each default civic or all default civics?

[D * [ O * ( [ P * (N-10) ] + [ C * (M +1) ] ) ] ]
-10 and +1 are the median
Spoiler :


D = 1 for deity
O = 1/2 for organized
N = population
C is equal to 0 for civics with no upkeep cost, 0.4 for civics with low upkeep cost, 0.5 for civics with medium upkeep cost and 0.6 for civics with high upkeep cost.
In civilization 4 version 1.52, the variable P is equal to 0 for civics with no upkeep cost, 0.08 for civics with low upkeep cost, 0.12 for civics with medium upkeep cost and 0.16 for civics with high upkeep cost.

If you use the civics in the game with the lowest possible cost (2 low cost civics and 3 no cost civics), then the civic upkeep cost will be 0.16 gold for each point of population and 0.8 gold for each city.
If you use the civics in the game with the highest cost (3 high cost civics and 2 medium cost civics), then the civic upkeep cost will be 0.72 gold for each point of population and 2.8 gold for each city.


Slavery, rest, low is
Each low civic is about
.08 * (n-10) + .4 * (m+1)=
.08 * n + .4 * m -.4
Organized saves .04 n + .2 m - .2
slavery is
.12 * (n-10) + .5 * (m+1) =
.12 *n + .5 *m -.7
Organized saves .06 n + .25 m - .35
Total cost
.44 n + 2.1* m -2.3

So you mean for all civics. If 40% of your population are working 2 commerce tiles, you gain
0.4 n = .22 n + 1.05 m -1.15
.18 n = 1.05 m - 1.15
With 6 cities, then 5.15 = .18 n, n = 29, or an average of 5 population each city.
I think 1/3's a bit more honest mid game (hr no bureaucracy) 6 cities total population of 45, average of about 7.5.


Might as well list them all
Spoiler :
1 city financial is about equal with 1/5 of your tiles being a commerce tile

2 cities financial is about equal at population 9 with 1/3 of your tiles being commerce tiles
2 cities financial is about equal at population 5 with 40% of your tiles being commerce

3 cities " population 18 with 1/3
3 cities " population 11 with 2/5

4 cities " population 27 with 1/3
4 cities " population 17 with 2/5

5 cities " population 36 with 1/3
5 cities " population 23 with 2/5

6 cities " population 45 with 1/3
6 cities " population 29 with 2/5


If most of your cottages are in your library/academy capital, it should be better for financial.

There's other factors, like financial makes non-riverside cottages return their value in 15 turns as opposed to 30, if you assume 1gpt per pop from some arbitrary hereditary rule deity calculation.

Financial you can switch mines to riverside cottages at 3 to 2 instead of 1 to 1 to make up for faster expansion vs no economic traits, although I guess organized does this too, and perhaps better since it scales better with #cities and lower average population. The biggest difference I notice is that courthouses can be worthwhile investments for organized leaders midgame, whereas non-organized you're usually better off building wealth and running specialists instead of whipping.
 
Financial gives you that crucial advantage in the early and midgame.

Well statement certainly is up for scrutiny by the top players...

To sum things up in a nut-shell, Org is based on an exponential mechanic, so it is always going to win out over Financial. And this isn't even including the hammer discounts one gains, where-as fin gives absolutely 0 discounts, which is ironic since the weaker cottage systems are always so hammer poor.
 
wow.

i am not at the level of the caluculus player but i am thankfull for the general breakdown.

I think i will play ORG more often then FIN simply because i like cheap things.

granted I have been playing FIN for a year or so, I enjoy it and from what i am understanding here it is, in pure technical terms, a generaly better trait. But i tend to find myself withering under the costs of empire growth in the mid game and i think org gives me a little more breathing room.

did i mention i like cheap stuff?
 
@ Vicawoo: The 40% to break even was meant to be a ballpark figure across different playstyles.

If you're assuming low-cost civics apart from Slavery and a focus on vertical over horizontal growth (new cities and heavy whipping can drag the average size down a fair bit)... yes, FIN is going to catch up at less than 40% commerce tiles worked.
On the other hand, your 2/5 break even points look perfectly realistic to me, and I like more expensive civics if available... for me, 40% are unlikely to be enough to put FIN ahead even without production considerations but I'm aware I tend to abuse my economy harder than most.
 
The financial trait seems to really encourage placing your cities on the coast. It's nice to get an extra :commerce: from the water tiles.


For some reason, I have yet to play as an organized trait leader yet. It's the last trait for me to try though, being a Civ4 newbie and all. :lol:
 
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