SickCycle
Prince
I always thought it would be appropriate to give the United States the Imperial trait in Civ4 I guess some people just haven't figured out were an Empire.
Firaxis and the Gross Misrepresentation of Non-Western History?
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SickCycle
Prince
I forgot to mention..
I've always loved how foreigners always like to make this assumption, I've been around the world a bit and outside of my country and this is the one thing I "ALWAYS" hear..
We love Americans we just don't like your government.
It's just to funny to me, how exactly does the entire rest of the world somehow all come to the same conclusion that Americans just don't see what our country is doing, that somehow were all good people we just don't get it?
Trust me, we get it, we understand, and we know and thats the brutal truth of it, take it while you can, you most likely wont ever hear an American "admit" to that again.
Well, at least that's good to hear. It's nice to know that you guys are at least aware of what's going on, though in some ways that's actually rather unsettling.
Americans are okay that their "boys" knowingly patronize white slavery and that their dollars are paying for the abduction, rape, and sexual slavery of women across the world?
Americans are okay with the fact that their government authorized the betrayal of an estwhile ally for the purpose of imperialist expansion and Manifest Destiny and THEN ordered the brutal subjugation of a people?
That's pretty tough stuff.
FYI, I have relatives who are American and I also have friends who are also American, so I'm not totally shooting in the dark when I say that most Americans don't know what the score is about their country, and what some of their countrymen are saying. I get that feedback from them. They're frequently flabbergasted at what many of their friends don't know and what they're simply not willing to believe.
I daresay that most of my relatives and friends wouldn't be all that sympathetic to your worldview that says that China is an enemy and ought to have been nuked when you had the chance. Heck, I've had some Americans order me to literally bow down before them and kiss their feet.
I'm not saying that that's the normal attitude, but it would really be great if such people could be kept out of the Oval Office. Then maybe you'd have less people interested in coming over to visit your shores and kill someone.
Americans are okay that their "boys" knowingly patronize white slavery and that their dollars are paying for the abduction, rape, and sexual slavery of women across the world?
Americans are okay with the fact that their government authorized the betrayal of an estwhile ally for the purpose of imperialist expansion and Manifest Destiny and THEN ordered the brutal subjugation of a people?
That's pretty tough stuff.
FYI, I have relatives who are American and I also have friends who are also American, so I'm not totally shooting in the dark when I say that most Americans don't know what the score is about their country, and what some of their countrymen are saying. I get that feedback from them. They're frequently flabbergasted at what many of their friends don't know and what they're simply not willing to believe.
I daresay that most of my relatives and friends wouldn't be all that sympathetic to your worldview that says that China is an enemy and ought to have been nuked when you had the chance. Heck, I've had some Americans order me to literally bow down before them and kiss their feet.
I'm not saying that that's the normal attitude, but it would really be great if such people could be kept out of the Oval Office. Then maybe you'd have less people interested in coming over to visit your shores and kill someone.
snipafist
Prince
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SickCycle is full of it. He might have some gung-ho conservative "kill them all and let God sort them out" friends, but Roxlimn is overwhelmingly correct in that most Americans don't know what their country is up to, or why. Most actions are veiled with the flag, and since Americans aren't asked to do anything or sacrifice anything for it, they don't really care. Those who support the Iraq war usually believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (it didn't), Islamic terrorists were using Iraq as a base (they weren't), Saddam had weapons of mass destruction (he didn't), or something of the sort. Very few, if any, people support the war and believe that it's just a great opportunity to clear out an older civilization, take their oil, and spread US military bases.
If you ask me, it's an unfortunate hold-over from the Cold War. Engaging in that for 40+ years has given the country a sickness. We're acclimated to an undue amount of secrecy. Our army is kept at ridiculously high levels at all times even without a clear threat. We're used to the feeling of a constant apocalyptic threat just over the horizon. We cling to "tough" American ideology as though it's all that separates us from people who don't like us. We view the countries who are annoyed at us as though the physically want to destroy us. Worst of all, we've come into a belief that if we're slightly less barbaric than our enemies, we still come out as the heroes of democracy across the world. It's all very sad. What annoys me is that given the opportunity to finally begin settling back "to normal" after the USSR collapsed, US statesmen decided it would be far easier to simply keep their military and policy working as normal, which is creeping us ever closer to outright imperialism. You'll have to trust me that most Americans are simply confused. In person, all but the haughtiest and most arrogant of us are nice people. It's just our government that leaves something to be desired.
Re: "the new Rome" idea, America is not the new Rome. We simply don't have the attitude for it. We're not outright militaristic or pragmatic enough. We're the new Athens, leading a Delian league (NATO). We take a legitimate defense pact against another power and grow fat and aggressive off of it when that power no longer legitimately threatens everyone, all the while annoying our allies and further aggravating other states while we're convinced that we're absolutely unstoppable.
If you ask me, it's an unfortunate hold-over from the Cold War. Engaging in that for 40+ years has given the country a sickness. We're acclimated to an undue amount of secrecy. Our army is kept at ridiculously high levels at all times even without a clear threat. We're used to the feeling of a constant apocalyptic threat just over the horizon. We cling to "tough" American ideology as though it's all that separates us from people who don't like us. We view the countries who are annoyed at us as though the physically want to destroy us. Worst of all, we've come into a belief that if we're slightly less barbaric than our enemies, we still come out as the heroes of democracy across the world. It's all very sad. What annoys me is that given the opportunity to finally begin settling back "to normal" after the USSR collapsed, US statesmen decided it would be far easier to simply keep their military and policy working as normal, which is creeping us ever closer to outright imperialism. You'll have to trust me that most Americans are simply confused. In person, all but the haughtiest and most arrogant of us are nice people. It's just our government that leaves something to be desired.
Re: "the new Rome" idea, America is not the new Rome. We simply don't have the attitude for it. We're not outright militaristic or pragmatic enough. We're the new Athens, leading a Delian league (NATO). We take a legitimate defense pact against another power and grow fat and aggressive off of it when that power no longer legitimately threatens everyone, all the while annoying our allies and further aggravating other states while we're convinced that we're absolutely unstoppable.
SickCycle
Prince
You guys are great, I may of been antagonizing slightly to get a rouse out of him.. 
To say most Americans don't understand what the country has its hands in, I think may be accurate for a certain age group. I'm twenty two and I find that my friends and the people I know in my area know more about this country it's history and what it's doing or has done in the past better then our parents.
Most of our parents or the generation before us as I guess it were, seem completely detatched from the world and what is/has happened. We talk to them about it and sometimes they agree and sometimes they are shocked but almost never do they disbelieve us.
I find it disgusting that I don't know anyone over the age of thirty that has even watched a single debate.. Yet they all "KNOW" who they are going to vote for.. It makes me sick.
Your suppose to hand a better world over to your children, not drown it in corruption, ignorance, and hate, then turn around and say here.. clean up the mess, because that's exactly what my generation is going to be stuck doing.
To say most Americans don't understand what the country has its hands in, I think may be accurate for a certain age group. I'm twenty two and I find that my friends and the people I know in my area know more about this country it's history and what it's doing or has done in the past better then our parents.
Most of our parents or the generation before us as I guess it were, seem completely detatched from the world and what is/has happened. We talk to them about it and sometimes they agree and sometimes they are shocked but almost never do they disbelieve us.
I find it disgusting that I don't know anyone over the age of thirty that has even watched a single debate.. Yet they all "KNOW" who they are going to vote for.. It makes me sick.
Your suppose to hand a better world over to your children, not drown it in corruption, ignorance, and hate, then turn around and say here.. clean up the mess, because that's exactly what my generation is going to be stuck doing.
SickCycle
Prince
Also, most people do know whats going on, they may not know the reasons things are done or to the extent.. but everyone knows what kind of things go on.
Most Americans have just accepted it, or grown accustomed to it, you could say desensitized.
When an American hears your country went into a village in Iraq and killed the entire village "on orders" people just think.. wow, thats horrible, or they think, kill um all and let god sort um out, but whichever they feel there is one thing that stays the same.. No one does anything, when it comes down to it, it doesn't bother anyone enough for them to say it's wrong, stop doing this.
They don't care, they just say they do because it's politically correct, everyone is just living there American Dream, and don't really care what happens in the rest of the world as long as it stays out of there/our little never never land.
Most Americans have just accepted it, or grown accustomed to it, you could say desensitized.
When an American hears your country went into a village in Iraq and killed the entire village "on orders" people just think.. wow, thats horrible, or they think, kill um all and let god sort um out, but whichever they feel there is one thing that stays the same.. No one does anything, when it comes down to it, it doesn't bother anyone enough for them to say it's wrong, stop doing this.
They don't care, they just say they do because it's politically correct, everyone is just living there American Dream, and don't really care what happens in the rest of the world as long as it stays out of there/our little never never land.
That's the worst part of it.
These yahoos are spending your money and using your name to kill and rape and maim and take. Does it affect you?
Of course it does!
Why do you think people from halfway across the globe take the trouble to go there just to kill people? If they just wanted to indiscriminately kill people, there's plenty everywhere! Heck there's people outside my house right now. If I wanted to kill some, there's no shortage in the local scene.
The thing is, these guys are specifically targeting the US, and it makes no sense for them to sacrifice their lives to kill people just because Americans like to say things these guys may or may not like some 2000 miles out of their earshot. No. These people are antagonistic to the US because Americans have come over from the US and screwed them over major. And you guys in the mainland are paying for it!
The most effective way to protect yourself from these terrorists is to give them no reason to hate you in the first place.
I mean, seriously. When was the last time a terrorist strike was aimed at China or Tibet? You think that that's due to effective counter-terrorist action or super-tight security measures? From China, the land of the pirated CDs?
These yahoos are spending your money and using your name to kill and rape and maim and take. Does it affect you?
Of course it does!
Why do you think people from halfway across the globe take the trouble to go there just to kill people? If they just wanted to indiscriminately kill people, there's plenty everywhere! Heck there's people outside my house right now. If I wanted to kill some, there's no shortage in the local scene.
The thing is, these guys are specifically targeting the US, and it makes no sense for them to sacrifice their lives to kill people just because Americans like to say things these guys may or may not like some 2000 miles out of their earshot. No. These people are antagonistic to the US because Americans have come over from the US and screwed them over major. And you guys in the mainland are paying for it!
The most effective way to protect yourself from these terrorists is to give them no reason to hate you in the first place.
I mean, seriously. When was the last time a terrorist strike was aimed at China or Tibet? You think that that's due to effective counter-terrorist action or super-tight security measures? From China, the land of the pirated CDs?
SickCycle
Prince
Your preaching to the wrong person, I'm one of the Americans that get it 
Doesn't mean I wouldn't argue the point and/or defend my country, just the way it is, the country may be falling but it's still our country, you can't expect anything different.
We'll defend it to the end for better or worse, leave the house cleaning to us
patience is a virtue lol
There are better ways anyway, Americans are more friendly and open then a lot of people seem to think, come here say what you want to say, hand out fliers, take all that money it takes to fly a plain into a building and instead run a news add/commercial, raise awareness.
Otherwise, your going to get the same response, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, you attack us, we'll attack you and we hit a lot harder
Ontop of that, when your the biggest guy on the block people naturally want to tussle, your the one to bring down.
For all the bad we do, we do a lot of good also, but when you meddle in international politics even if it's keeping stability or peace in certain regions your still getting involved in other peoples affairs your going to upset people and your going to make enemies, it comes with the territory.
If you think Americans want there country playing world police your wrong, but were going to do our best. You think things are bad now? How do you think they would look if the United States never even tried? Never stepped to the plate, someone has to do it. Not all countries/people can defend themselves, and as I recall before the United States become the world police organization there were two back to back world wars that almost engulfed the human race.
There may be wars and there may be death but they've been nowhere on the scale as they were a hundred years ago.
Also, besides all that, were still a country just like any other and we need to survive, unfortunately for most people I'd wager if you have to choose between yourself and another.. you choose yourself.
Most people know were in the middle east because of the oil, but it's more complicated then that, the united states can't survive without it and we have none of our own, does that give us the right to take from others.. ethically, no but in reality that's not how it happens, every civilization in history when faced with a threat if it involves war to survive in there current state they choose survival.
About a year before we invaded the middle east Saddam had switched his oil exchanges to deal only in the Euro, now there is a thing called Petro-Dollar Recycling and in theory it keeps our economy afloat, by doing that you could in theory crash our economy.
That was as much an attack on the United States as a missle or a gun, do we have a right to force others to keep the balance in our favor and not allow another country to sell it's oil in whatever currency they choose, ethically.. absolutely not, but when any person or civilization has to choose between themselves or not they choose survival.
Self-Preservation is one of the strongest innate instincts in any creature, animal, human being, it's human nature.. it's nature in general, everything fights to preserve what they have and there way of life or just there life in general.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't argue the point and/or defend my country, just the way it is, the country may be falling but it's still our country, you can't expect anything different.
We'll defend it to the end for better or worse, leave the house cleaning to us
patience is a virtue lolThere are better ways anyway, Americans are more friendly and open then a lot of people seem to think, come here say what you want to say, hand out fliers, take all that money it takes to fly a plain into a building and instead run a news add/commercial, raise awareness.
Otherwise, your going to get the same response, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, you attack us, we'll attack you and we hit a lot harder
Ontop of that, when your the biggest guy on the block people naturally want to tussle, your the one to bring down.
For all the bad we do, we do a lot of good also, but when you meddle in international politics even if it's keeping stability or peace in certain regions your still getting involved in other peoples affairs your going to upset people and your going to make enemies, it comes with the territory.
If you think Americans want there country playing world police your wrong, but were going to do our best. You think things are bad now? How do you think they would look if the United States never even tried? Never stepped to the plate, someone has to do it. Not all countries/people can defend themselves, and as I recall before the United States become the world police organization there were two back to back world wars that almost engulfed the human race.
There may be wars and there may be death but they've been nowhere on the scale as they were a hundred years ago.
Also, besides all that, were still a country just like any other and we need to survive, unfortunately for most people I'd wager if you have to choose between yourself and another.. you choose yourself.
Most people know were in the middle east because of the oil, but it's more complicated then that, the united states can't survive without it and we have none of our own, does that give us the right to take from others.. ethically, no but in reality that's not how it happens, every civilization in history when faced with a threat if it involves war to survive in there current state they choose survival.
About a year before we invaded the middle east Saddam had switched his oil exchanges to deal only in the Euro, now there is a thing called Petro-Dollar Recycling and in theory it keeps our economy afloat, by doing that you could in theory crash our economy.
That was as much an attack on the United States as a missle or a gun, do we have a right to force others to keep the balance in our favor and not allow another country to sell it's oil in whatever currency they choose, ethically.. absolutely not, but when any person or civilization has to choose between themselves or not they choose survival.
Self-Preservation is one of the strongest innate instincts in any creature, animal, human being, it's human nature.. it's nature in general, everything fights to preserve what they have and there way of life or just there life in general.
By the same token, North Korea and Iran have every right to pursue their nuclear agendas. In fact, I rather think that the reason they're going for it at such full tilt is literally as a defensive countermeasure against the US.
Once you start saying that invasion is justifiable on the grounds that it makes your lives better, there ceases to be anything resembling civilized behavior in international relations. Everyone's in it only to advance their own agendas and they'll do whatever it takes to make it happen, screw everyone else.
I had better hopes for America's turn at world leadership than a barbaric free-for-all where the strong take whatever they could and weak suffer and die.
What the hell are you talking about? The US government firmly squelched any hint that their takeover of the Philippines was anything other than a benevolent ruling of a people who wanted to be ruled.
You can't just say whatever you want in the US, particularly as a foreigner, because Americans have always been naturally hostile to foreigners (just look at the current state of the immigration laws), and the government closely screens and monitors the media for content.
Anyone who even mentions that he's Iranian and tries to get sympathetic and reasonable responses to the very probable use of nuclears as an anti-US deterrent (not an attack weapon) would get the cold shoulder treatment from the general populace at best. He could get physically abused and manhandled by Americans hostile to Iran, he could get deported or arrested on any number of criminal charges, or he could simply disappear and never be heard from again.
If he's lucky, someone will put a bullet through his head and end his misery early.
If there's one thing Americans are, it's neither friendly NOR open.
Once you start saying that invasion is justifiable on the grounds that it makes your lives better, there ceases to be anything resembling civilized behavior in international relations. Everyone's in it only to advance their own agendas and they'll do whatever it takes to make it happen, screw everyone else.
I had better hopes for America's turn at world leadership than a barbaric free-for-all where the strong take whatever they could and weak suffer and die.
What the hell are you talking about? The US government firmly squelched any hint that their takeover of the Philippines was anything other than a benevolent ruling of a people who wanted to be ruled.
You can't just say whatever you want in the US, particularly as a foreigner, because Americans have always been naturally hostile to foreigners (just look at the current state of the immigration laws), and the government closely screens and monitors the media for content.
Anyone who even mentions that he's Iranian and tries to get sympathetic and reasonable responses to the very probable use of nuclears as an anti-US deterrent (not an attack weapon) would get the cold shoulder treatment from the general populace at best. He could get physically abused and manhandled by Americans hostile to Iran, he could get deported or arrested on any number of criminal charges, or he could simply disappear and never be heard from again.
If he's lucky, someone will put a bullet through his head and end his misery early.
If there's one thing Americans are, it's neither friendly NOR open.
SickCycle
Prince
I'll give a link to a foreigner that did exactly what I'm talking about, I also mentioned money, Osama for instance comes from a very wealthy family what I'm saying is if he has a problem he could use that money and connections within his family to make his point known, no matter what you think of americans, what anyone thinks, there is one universal truth about this country, the dollar rules all.
If you have the money to back yourself you could come here and do/say anything you'd like, the government may make it hard for you but you can.
Heck, Saudi Arabia "owns" a pretty large slice of America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oPEfa9Lws
Also, some of what you said is going a little overboard and into the anti-american propaganda box.
I'm American and I myself wouldn't doubt for a second that they want a nuclear weapon in large part to keep the U.S. out of there backyard, you mention that if you even tried to say something like that at all you'd get cold shouldered and the government would censor you.. Except the media isn't run by the government, it may be manipulated at times but it's not in control of it.
You should also know, I've read articles in both the Washington Post I believe and Time magazine that have mentioned exactly that point of view, which was written by "other" Americans.
SickCycle
Prince
They do have every right, doesn't mean the U.S. is going to let it happen, this isn't a book this is real life, and guess what, Civilization and Empires and the Human Race behave the same now as they did 4,000 years ago.
The United States sees them as a threat as it should and they find it threatening to have those countries armed with the most powerful weapon man has ever known.. if they want it so bad, out smart us.
We are worldly considered ignorant and un-educated, shouldn't be too hard.
The United States sees them as a threat as it should and they find it threatening to have those countries armed with the most powerful weapon man has ever known.. if they want it so bad, out smart us.
We are worldly considered ignorant and un-educated, shouldn't be too hard.
mythmonster2
BEC NOIR! RUN!
Please, the rest of you, don't take this as an interpretation of all of the US. OK, so most of us are like that but please, just don't take this guy as representative of us. Also, to the guy I quoted
1: Oh, my bad, I guess India, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britian, France, The Soviet Union, China, the Netherlands, Italy, Serbia, Canada, and all other countries that helped us in the WW's must not exist and obviously are myths.
2: Oh, obviously Yugoslavia didn't exist either, sorry! (To the Communist one. Most of what I've heard about communist Yugoslavia which, I admit, is not much was not all bad. And no, I'm not a communist.)
3: OK, so I'm wrong in thinking that the wheel, farming, feudalism, the bow, the sword, the gun, artillery, the atomic bomb(like it or not, Einstein was German), and pretty much 99% of the world's stuff was not invented by America.
4: I dare you to show me ONE peice of proof that can convince me Iraq had WMD's and I'll take back these comments
5: Awww, I thought Canada was #1!
SickCycle
Prince
That makes no sense man.. lol.. your saying most aren't like me but then you turn around and admit the truth
that most are and then you turn around and say don't take me as a representative of us..
so confused.. you know the truth, don't lie to these people.I think some of you are missing an important point. Sure, the game might distort history a bit (from including or not including some wonders to the leaders picked), but for many people (not just Americans) the places, peoples, buildings, troops, etc. have never been encountered before. I never knew much about many of the wonders, but civ (II through IV) opened them up for me, and in some cases I have actually gone out and learned more! So while we may quibble with some of the errors, omissions, choices, etc., we should also recognize that civ adds value to our knowledge, quite unlike most games.
I find the last few pages of the discussion a bit depressing (from China to communism to the Arab World to the US itself) with all the distortion in various arguments.
I find the last few pages of the discussion a bit depressing (from China to communism to the Arab World to the US itself) with all the distortion in various arguments.
SickCycle
Prince
haha, i don't think civ4 is a good place to learn history
yeah, i have a way of corrupting threads lol
it relates though because one of the major reasons non-western history is so distorted is because this is a game created by western culture and it's distorted by mostly america
your minds are belong to us
yeah, i have a way of corrupting threads lol
it relates though because one of the major reasons non-western history is so distorted is because this is a game created by western culture and it's distorted by mostly america
your minds are belong to us
1. Actually, from what I know, the USSR won the Europe war single-handedly, while America basically won the Pacific war.
2. If you mean Yugoslavia was a communist country that the US supported, then yes.
Oh, and I think I he was joking
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