First Attempt at Tiny 20K - Abandoned

[sanabas]

Let me comment some on this.
Luck is of course very important in a 20K game.
But you need to know what you're doing in the first place.
There are many many things that will save you turns that are not luck dependant that require skills.

And no way are 10 SGLs required.
2 early ones and a slighty above normal stream after that is enough for a Great, even a record run for most tables.
This is of course with a good strategy.

Agree with all that. But assuming you know what you're doing, finish date is determined by how fast you can build, which is down to how many shields your city position can generate, and how many SGLs you get, especially early ones. Once you reach late MA/early IA you should be able to work out your date to within a few turns, and SGLs on every tech from that point would only improve it slightly, early SGLs are the important bit. I just mentioned the 10 because I had a look at the quickest 20k game on the tables, and that game had about 10.

I think if 4 skilled players were given the same start at emperor or below, and leaders were turned off, they'd all come up with a 20k finish within 10 turns of each other.

 

[LulThyme]

If by skilled you mean have played at least few good 20K's then I would probably agree with you.

As the technique improves, you can only shave less and less turns here and there, and you become more luck-dependent (mostly early SGLs as you said) to get big improvements.

But it kinda sucks to get a very lucky game, and lose 20 turns due to a lot of minor to medium mistakes...

 

[Tone]

But it kinda sucks to get a very lucky game, and lose 20 turns due to a lot of minor to medium mistakes...

I can relate to that. I've tried a few times to contest your games, sometimes getting closer than others. However my luckiest game was one of my earliest and I wasn't quite so aware of what was required to achieve the dates you have posted. If only I could get those early SGLs again in another game then I might stand a chance.

 

[denyd]

What good are SGL's in a Conquest game?

One of the reasons I'm playing for Conquest wins is the lack of SGL needs that type of victory needs. A couple MGLs are nice (MW Armies are 4-1-3) as shock troops against the AI's best defender. It seems that the Cultural & Domination wins are the most dependent on SGL's for high scores.

 

[Dianthus]

An SGL for the Pyramids is always handy, at least on the longer conquest games where a number of cities are required.

 

[sanabas]

A very early settler from a hut or an early SGL for pyramids both double your growth speed, which leads to double your unit-producing ability and/or earlier end of the growth phase and start of the unit producing phase. That's helpful for any VC that requires a lot of growth, which is all of them except 20k.

All the VCs can be helped by early SGL luck to get a really good date. Some of the tables have a few games that have had this luck (tiny-standard 20k on chief-emperor especially), but there's plenty of tables that are available to get a 1st place without any SGLs, no matter what VC you're using. There's empty tables for every VC I think.

 

[Spoonwood]

That's helpful for any VC that requires a lot of growth, which is all of them except 20k.

Maybe Sanabas doesn't come around here anymore, but in light of recent events, at least for some 20k games this probably deserves clarification (I doubt he would disagree with me, but who knows). Growth *can* help in the 20k game, in that if you play things right you might pop an SGL or more SGLs in the middle ages faster, maybe get the heroic epic faster, and you can also not waste shields this way, as well you can keep on having your 20k city building culture for a good long time. The thing is though, early expansion means little. Why? Well, the easiest way to see this might not to look purely in terms of the inital cultural value for The Colossus, The Oracle, and The Pyramids. For a 20k game, think of The Colossus as The Great Library, and both The Oracle and The Pyramids as Shakespeare's Theater. In fact, the effects of The Colossus really can work similarly to The Great Library... it helps you scientifically, and The Pyramids help growth as does Shakespeare's Theater. The Oracle seems the odd-wonder out. In terms of turn-time, if I've estimated correctly, they double quickly enough that The Colossus really gives you 6 culture most of the game, and The Oracle and The Pyramids 8 culture per turn. Other ancient age wonders also work out similarly... though not quite as well... especially The Statue of Zeus if you can get (8 culture most of the game for 200 shields... I must worship my god, I guess).

 

[AutomatedTeller]

actually, an early SGL for pyramids is pretty much the cornerstone for a 20K game, for 3 reasons:

1) Great early culture
2) Gets you tourist income early
3) Helps you catch up fast

Since, in a 20K game, you likely get your 3rd city 30-40 turns later than normal, you need to be able to expand and grow as fast as possible to keep research up.

 

[sanabas]

Early SGL for pyramids, or early settler from a hut helps for all VCs, yep. For non-20k, it helps because it roughly doubles your expansion speed.

For 20k, it helps for the culture, or for the chance to not waste *any* shields on non culture stuff, as the second city can supply a stream of workers, hopefully. It also helps as it lets you get to 12 improved squares slightly more quickly. Expansion's just something you do enough of to maintain 4 turn research through the middle ages and beyond, to keep your 20k city safe, and to maybe find an MGL or two. But on low levels, once you enter the middle ages, you're not really going to improve things by more than a few turns with an SGL.