First impressions on RFC RAND

Barak

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As somebody has already mentioned before, in High Earth Likeness (on a huge map), Russia spawns too close to China, so that there is no space for Mongolians between them.
In fact, in my first (and so far, only) game, Russia spawned right next to China, but there was a big gap to the west between Russia and Germany. This kind of makes Russia into an Asian power, rather than a European one, so the UHV condition can only be met by colonizing to the west, which is problematic because "Europe" is jam-packed with civs.

Also because there was no space left on Asian mainland for Mongolia, it spawned on an island (or maybe it was a big long peninsula) next to Japan!

So I would really prefer for Russia to be moved further west, at least for High likeness.

I have seen this many times as well, and think that Russia should be more of a European than Asian civ.
 

Zdarg

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I have seen this many times as well, and think that Russia should be more of a European than Asian civ.
You dare to pretend to solve hardest philosophic question ever asked about Russia? :)
Personally, I think there should be a random. Russia should have a possibility of deciding itself, if it is Eurasia or Asiope.
 

lumpthing

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Russia's origins and cultural, historical, religious and poltical heritage are all thoroughly European. It's just that while the Western European nations expanded overseas and eventually lost their empires, Russia expanded overland and retained its empire. Having the Russians start next to China is like having the English start in Australia.
 

Zdarg

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Does anyone seriously argue that Russia is more Asian than European??!
Yes, of course. Most well-known artistic manifestation of this opinion is "Revenge" poem by Alexander Block, best Russian poet of early XX century. It starts: "Yeah, we are Scythians, we are Asians, with slanting and greedy eyes..."
 

Shadowhal

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since I am relatively new to rfc in common, could someone explain why so many civs just have no desire to expand. I saw it in normal and in rand, and of course it may have to do with stability, but still, they wouldn't be so horribly weak and out-teched if they just founded a few more cities. I am thinking of khmer, or ethiopia or atztecs and the like. maybe its just a difficulty setting, but its still strange to see them found a city or two and then do nothing even though there would be land available.
 

onedreamer

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Does anyone seriously argue that Russia is more Asian than European??! It's Slavic, and the Slavs are undeniably rooted in Eastern Europe.

have you tried asking the Russians ? Most Russians wouldn't think they are european, but that's mostly because they think that euros don't want them ;)
 

lumpthing

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Well Russians are generally happy to identify themselves as Slavs, and Slavs are definitely Eastern European.

Beyond the fact that Russia colonized Northern Asia, is there any argument for starting Russia in Asia rather than Eastern Europe?
 

Zdarg

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Well Russians are generally happy to identify themselves as Slavs, and Slavs are definitely Eastern European.

Beyond the fact that Russia colonized Northern Asia, is there any argument for starting Russia in Asia rather than Eastern Europe?
Well, IRL nobody cares about pure geographical aspect when discussing this question. Cultural, religious, psychological aspects are much more important.
If we concider European civilisation as a whole, Russia isn't integral part of this (whilst US is, though geographically it's America). Many people think it shouldn't ever became, so they treat this country as part of Asia.

In other words, grouping countries by geogarphical location onl shouldn't be default approach.
 

onedreamer

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Zdarg is right, besides Russians consider themselves Russians, not Slavs (unless for political reasons in order to have an excuse to have a say in the balkan matters...). The influence of asian civilizations is very strong in Russia and its culture. So I reiterate the question: have you tried asking Russians (not politicians...) how much they think to be european ?
 

Barak

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I guess the question though is where did Russia originate? Since the issue is spawning, not cultural relocation.

Kievan Rus was founded in the European area of modern Russia, not near China

Later of course Peter founded his great city as a mirror to the west, NOT to the east. I feel that modern Russian cultural identity is not as much of an issue as historic Russian cultural identity.

just my 2 cents
 

Zdarg

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Zdarg is right, besides Russians consider themselves Russians, not Slavs (unless for political reasons in order to have an excuse to have a say in the balkan matters...).
It's slightly more complicate. Pro-Western ideologists often say that Russians aren't Slavs because we have too much of Mongolian blood. Anti-Western ideologists sincerely believe we are Slavs, but they also believe Slavs are Arians, direct descendents of India civilization, so not Europeans. Simple people just don't care, they hate them both, because they suffered from any sort of ideologists grandly.
Personally, I feel myself to be Russian, Siberian and cosmopolitan, in that order.
 

Zdarg

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I guess the question though is where did Russia originate? Since the issue is spawning, not cultural relocation.

Kievan Rus was founded in the European area of modern Russia, not near China
I am not sure about your chart, it's too different from what I've seen in my schoolbooks. Kievan Rus' hadn't any access to Baltic sea, but had much more access to Black sea. Generally, it was closer to south. I'd say you chart is very early Moscow Tzardom, not Kievan Rus'.
 

Barak

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I am not sure about your chart, it's too different from what I've seen in my schoolbooks. Kievan Rus' hadn't any access to Baltic sea, but had much more access to Black sea. Generally, it was closer to south. I'd say you chart is very early Moscow Tzardom, not Kievan Rus'.

Could be. Honestly, I took the map from wikipedia's History of Russia. Honestly, early Tzarist Russia still goes to my point of Russia as more west than east on founding. Understanding of course that they expanded east to absorbed many Asian people's into the motherland.

Its like asking the question of whether Eastern Rome (which became Byzantine empire) was eastern or western.
 

Zdarg

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Could be.
Honestly, early Tzarist Russia still goes to my point of Russia as more west than east on founding.
Though it started as Mongolian vassal.
In fact, after Mongolian invasion, two cities fighted for leadership in future Russia, Moscow and Tver'... and Moscow won mostly because of eagerness to kiss Mongolian's ass.
Its like asking the question of whether Eastern Rome (which became Byzantine empire) was eastern or western.
Agreed. :)
 

onedreamer

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I guess the question though is where did Russia originate? Since the issue is spawning, not cultural relocation.

Kievan Rus was founded in the European area of modern Russia, not near China

Why the question is geographical and not cultural ? That's your own conclusion, which I consider pretty wrong. In fact, in this case Russians would be scandinavian... or what ?

Later of course Peter founded his great city as a mirror to the west, NOT to the east. I feel that modern Russian cultural identity is not as much of an issue as historic Russian cultural identity.

He was fascinated by his experiences in Europe, so what ? If anything, this proves once more, that he felt Russia wasn't part of it.


It's slightly more complicate. Pro-Western ideologists often say that Russians aren't Slavs because we have too much of Mongolian blood. Anti-Western ideologists sincerely believe we are Slavs, but they also believe Slavs are Arians, direct descendents of India civilization, so not Europeans. Simple people just don't care, they hate them both, because they suffered from any sort of ideologists grandly.
Personally, I feel myself to be Russian, Siberian and cosmopolitan, in that order.

At the end of your reasoning though, you said what I anticipated: "Russians consider themselves Russians" ;)
Ideologies (and even "religions") aren't the expression of the thought of people or of a majority, they are the thought of one person.
 

Zdarg

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At the end of your reasoning though, you said what I anticipated:
Did I, really? Well, never mind. :)

Another thing worth mentioning is that in fact Europe and Asia aren't geographical terms at all. These are just halves of one continent, without any natural border between them. Geographically, such division is absolutely arbitrary and needless, and based on misunderstanding (Greeks didn't realize there was overland way from known Europe to known Asia). So we should classify by cultural aspect only, not by geofraphical one.
 

Ambassador

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So we should classify by cultural aspect only, not by geofraphical one.

Especially in RAND. So I'd say its European, too.
 

Lone Wolf

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I'd say you chart is very early Moscow Tzardom, not Kievan Rus'.

Kievan Rus initially had access to Baltics. It had access to Black Sea, but it was lost to the Turk tribes in the Steppe.

Why the question is geographical and not cultural ?

Because we are discussing the location of Russian starting point on the map, which is a geographical aspect.
 
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