First Monarch Game

[Lexicus]

I'm making the jump to Monarch today and I wanted to post the game here to get some advice and see if I'm on the right track.

The initial save is attached to this post. The settings are:

Darius of England (I only play unrestricted leaders)
Big and Small (massive continents, islands, islands mixed in, low sea level)
Large
11 Civs
Epic speed

Choose religions is also checked, along with Aggressive AI and Time and Culture victories disabled.

 

[Lexicus]

It's an excellent start, lots of flood plains and rivers near the capital. I have played a bit more than 20 turns so far.

 

[Lexicus]

Here it is, 48 turns in.

Where should I go from here?

 

[Htadus]

That is a food poor start. Are you heading to Alpha directly?

 

[ikotomi]

I'm playing this a bit, and... it's not turning into a normal game. Turn 59, and the Holy Roman Empire is already destroyed, probably because of barbarians (event/hut maybe?). Kind of contemplating restarting.

Don't want to reveal too much, since I got BW from a hut early on so I can see metal, but I want AG first (partly because it didn't register that we were England so I wanted to prioritize AH) so I can get one farmed FP as you don't have natural food in the start.

As you may have noticed, the start is quite food poor, so you will probably want AG soon, as some of the best early cities will have to make do with farmed flood plains for a while, and going AG before pottery would have given you a bit of a discount.

Since this is Prince rushing alpha is my choice. AI is very slow to expand so waiting for maths before chopping might make more sense. Judging by your turn count, it looks like you only built one warrior before starting your settler. If this was a very competitive game, it might make sense to push your luck, but I would build at least one more warrior to fog bust and in case one of your first two warriors dies.

 

[Anysense]

Its already 2800 BC and cows are not improved? Surely you are joking.
Regarding tech path Ag->AH is obvious here.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[ikotomi]

I wouldn't say that AH is *obvious* in this case. This is a no luxury start, so pottery first gives you access to 3 commerce FP cottage tiles which is going to be the only source of decent commerce for a long time.

To be honest, it's been a long time since I played Monarch, so maybe you can get to alphabet without going bankrupt, but pottery is usually a must with starts like these and opens up the Alphabet beeline. Another benefit is that you researched wheel which allows you to save worker turns, and get +2 commerce from trade route to your first city.

Attached is a save at 1725 BC + screenshot of current cities (copper revealed). This was the date I researched Alphabet, and backfilled techs. Tech route was TW > Pottery > Writing > Alpha. I got BW in the middle from a hut, but it wasn't a big factor as there wasn't quite enough food to whip and I decided to save forests for later.

I had bad luck against barb animals, so I couldn't get as much of the map revealed before I brought back warriors to spawn bust.

Curious to see how it compares with a non-alpha early production strategy. I was struggling at this point to get enough production out for settlers, but it didn't worry me that much as there weren't any amazingly good spots to expand.

Decision to settle stone city third was a mistake in retrospect. I figured I would be able to get masonry soon after alpha, but I underestimated how long it would take for enough AI to get it so it would be available to trade. I also didn't have nearly enough workers to get the city online fast with a quarry, while coming back to take care of the cow in the capital. Chopping more in the capital instead of waiting until maths would probably have been more effective. There was just so much work to do already that stinginess won me over.

 

[Anysense]

I still think that skipping AH is nonsense. One can't ignore the only good tile one's capital has. The fact that you struggled to get out your first settlers and warriors clearly shows why.
What is wrong with the city next to the stone? This is a very nice city with a wet wheat and floodplains. The problem here is that your worker is hanging out while he must be improving the wheat.
I don't think that early alpha can earn you something important. You expand slower and in long term will lose more than you gain now.
Attached a 1175 BC save so that you can compare.

 

[Lexicus]

Since this is Prince rushing alpha is my choice.

I checked, it was Monarch. Prince I can actually beat very easily now that I've started using the whip (whereas when I first started playing this game I sometimes had trouble winning on Warlord). But I had a lot of trouble with this save. I wouldn't consider this to be "food poor" at all, is "food poor" then a measure of how many food you can get in a smaller number of tiles?

I wouldn't say that AH is *obvious* in this case. This is a no luxury start, so pottery first gives you access to 3 commerce FP cottage tiles which is going to be the only source of decent commerce for a long time.

This is what I thought, too, and I wanted to start cottages as early as possible since they get 3g on a river.

Looking at Anysense's save, he has settled along the south coast much faster than I did. In my game Huayna Capac nabbed the site of Canterbury. I settled a city in the same spot as Nottingham but then I tried to settle on the rivers with the flood plains rather than hugging the coast.

I thought flood plains were good...are they not? And on Monarch as opposed to Prince is it generally more important to get worker techs than quickly get to Alphabet?

 

[Anysense]

I wouldn't consider this to be "food poor" at all, is "food poor" then a measure of how many food you can get in a smaller number of tiles?

I thought flood plains were good...are they not? And on Monarch as opposed to Prince is it generally more important to get worker techs than quickly get to Alphabet?

Food poor means little food surplus. In this case if you for example farm 2 floodplains the capital will have a meager 6 food surplus at level 3, 8 at level 4. If you cottage them than you lose 1 more per FP which results in 5 surplus at lvl 4.
Compare it with 2 wet corns which is 2+6+6-4=10 . The bigger your food surplus the faster the city grows and regrows after whipping. Then while building a settler this is being converted into . Thus your expansion depend stronly on this factor. Also floodplains have a significant limitation - it takes 3 more turns to improve them.

 

[ikotomi]

Of course eventually you'll want to work the cow, but the idea behind the beeline for alphabet is that you're trading production for a massive amount of tech. It's not awful to self tech the worker techs and get a head start on production, but it's also not awful to streamline your research and get a head start on tech.

I played until 1150 (one turn after your save), and the games are quite different. You have one more city, and some libraries while I have all the basic techs in addition to some higher tier techs like Maths and Iron Working. My personal preference would be to have the tech, since AI expands really slowly at this level.

I will admit that the early alpha could have been delayed *a little* as I was waiting a long time for AI's to be willing to give away techs like sailing and masonry (Great Wall goes so late). You want to find a balance based off the difficulty level and how fast the AI's tech, but a straight beeline on a pangea-like map seems to still be valid on Monarch (and definitely higher until you hit immortal/deity).

I do believe that even if you do go AH, skipping pottery is not good in this case because of the sheer difference in the amount of commerce you are missing out on. The investment to go into pottery should at least double your commerce early game, as well as give you access to granaries and making writing a little cheaper. In this particular case, BW is probably the best option to skip, as the start is poor for whipping.

Looking at Anysense's save, he has settled along the south coast much faster than I did. In my game Huayna Capac nabbed the site of Canterbury. I settled a city in the same spot as Nottingham but then I tried to settle on the rivers with the flood plains rather than hugging the coast.

I thought flood plains were good...are they not? And on Monarch as opposed to Prince is it generally more important to get worker techs than quickly get to Alphabet?

Flood plains and rivers are good, but there are more things to take into account when you choose where to place your city. If what you need is more hammers, fitting another green hill can be worth a flood plain or two, and if there is a special food resource, it's definitely worth it to settle with that in the first ring around your city if you don't have an immediate source of culture available.

 

[Anysense]

You are right that BW is of little use here because its just monarch difficulty level, but I always have my deity habits with me wich include grabbing horses/copper asap and extensive fogbusting.

 

[Lexicus]

Food poor means little food surplus. In this case if you for example farm 2 floodplains the capital will have a meager 6 food surplus at level 3, 8 at level 4. If you cottage them than you lose 1 more per FP which results in 5 surplus at lvl 4.
Compare it with 2 wet corns which is 2+6+6-4=10 . The bigger your food surplus the faster the city grows and regrows after whipping. Then while building a settler this is being converted into . Thus your expansion depend stronly on this factor. Also floodplains have a significant limitation - it takes 3 more turns to improve them.

Basically the food surplus is the amount of food worked in the city (including the free tile which always gives 2 food, right?) minus 2x the number of citizens.
So working one 6 tile gives the same surplus at one pop as working two 4 tiles gives at 2 pop, the single 6 tile is better for growth because less food is needed to grow from 1 to 2 than to grow from 2 to 3?

 

[pigswill]

I opened the starting save, didn't really like sip, moved warrior SE and decided it would be worth moving settler 2E before settling, elephants in bfc, more floodplains. Likely tech path would be hunting>AH, wheel, pottery (start with fishing). Haven't played it though.

 

[Pengu]

Urk, just awful start. Plains cow and a couple of fplains, that's it.

Spoiler :

And after a few turns you realize you have nothing, not a single good food resource around, no bronze, no horses. Stone is around, and that's it. Just boring.

 

[Lexicus]

Pengu, I think you're right, and I think I'll be starting a new game because this start is just too barren. I want a more auspicious start for my first monarch game.

 

[Anysense]

Urk, just awful start. Plains cow and a couple of fplains, that's it.
And after a few turns you realize you have nothing, not a single good food resource around, no bronze, no horses. Stone is around, and that's it. Just boring.

The start is a slow one but not awful. By 2800 BC I found 2 more cows, 2 corns, wheat, 2 fish, sheep, vast grasslands, rivers and floodplains and once BW is in 2 copper resources pops up. I wish I had such a rich land in every game.
What would you say about this start?

Spoiler :

 

[pigswill]

Doesn't have to be a boring game: financial flood plains, ivory, nearby stone, nearby copper, nearby gold. Could be an elepult game.

 

[Htadus]

I opened the starting save, didn't really like sip, moved warrior SE and decided it would be worth moving settler 2E before settling, elephants in bfc, more floodplains. Likely tech path would be hunting>AH, wheel, pottery (start with fishing). Haven't played it though.

SIP was definitely not a good choice. 1S or 1SE is better. 2E could be very good too.

Urk, just awful start. Plains cow and a couple of fplains, that's it.

Spoiler :

And after a few turns you realize you have nothing, not a single good food resource around, no bronze, no horses. Stone is around, and that's it. Just boring.

This by far is not an awful start. There are so many options and definitely not boring. I guess it all depends on your definition of boring.

Pengu, I think you're right, and I think I'll be starting a new game because this start is just too barren. I want a more auspicious start for my first monarch game.

This is not a easy map but playing this well will make you a better player than an easy food rich map. Also going for Alpha via pottery is also a great start on this map.
Play the map. FYI, it is very easy to pull off a CS sling on this map at this level too.

 

[Lexicus]

This is not a easy map but playing this well will make you a better player than an easy food rich map. Also going for Alpha via pottery is also a great start on this map.
Play the map. FYI, it is very easy to pull off a CS sling on this map at this level too.

I'll take another crack at it, I guess.

There seems to be a general consensus that the initial tech path should be AG-->AH. Correct me if I'm wrong. After that, what? Writing--> Alpha or should I grab Pottery?