Fish To Start?

[DarkSchneider]

Alright, I've started a new game on Emporer and this one has Clams near the starting spot. I picked the Americans as my Civ so I've started with fishing. Is it worth it to build a fishing boat first thing before a worker? I was thinking I might do it since it will be around 32 turns before I am finished with Mining and Bronze Working.

I was thinking of using the flood plains to grow to size 2, then using 2 plains/forests spots to get the boat out. Sound good?

 

[Jorunkun]

Would be interesting to do the maths on it ... my hunch is that it´s a good idea to build a fishing boat off the bat.

Considering that the city grows while you build the boat and the worked sea tile generates 4 or 5 food toward worker/settler, this strategy should be even to worker-chop, especially if you don´t start with mining. Also, it´s one improvement that can´t be pillaged for quite some time.

I quite like to play this when I get a chance, not least because it´s such a rare occasion (playing with random civs).

J.,

 

[scienide09]

I'd go for the fishing boat for the same reasons as Jorunkun stated.

In a recent game had clams in the fat cross, and made fishing my first tech.

If you're playing on Emperor, I'd say get that boat out, then build some defences before looking into a worker.

Again, I don't know the math, but I imagine that the faster growth rate means that you'll make up the loss of not pusing for BW right away.

 

[alexti2]

Alright, I've started a new game on Emporer and this one has Clams near the starting spot. I picked the Americans as my Civ so I've started with fishing. Is it worth it to build a fishing boat first thing before a worker? I was thinking I might do it since it will be around 32 turns before I am finished with Mining and Bronze Working.

I was thinking of using the flood plains to grow to size 2, then using 2 plains/forests spots to get the boat out. Sound good?

Depend if you can start working clam the same turn you build the boat. Then after 13 turns you'll be 1 commerce up and 2 food down (same population, same production otherwise) if you start working plain. If this 1 extra beaker can allow you to get tech 1 turn earlier, it may be better plan. If clam is further, then your plan is better. If you few more flood plains there, another good beginning is to build worker let him build farms while researching pottery and then put cottages on the flood plain. 3F3C tiles are pretty good at an early stage and it will allow you to plant couple of extra cities.

 

[bonscott]

I'd do a fishing boat 2nd after a warrior. But then I almost never build a worker first thing, he's got nothing to do most of the time!

My normal build order (depending on situation of course) is:
1) Warrior
2) Warrior (or Scout if I have the tech)
3) City usually size 2 now, Worker
4) Settler or more military if barbarians are a pain or I don't have the ability to chop just yet.

 

[emills]

I would recommend that you build a worker then the fishing boat while researching mining. This way you get a worker that can build mines and farms (since you start with agriculture) right out of the box. As your city grows during the boat building process, you manufacturing capability gets more powerful and you will not have to chop a warrier to go with your first settler.

 

[thordk]

i would go for the fishing boat. when building a worker first your city isn't growing. so when your boat pops out you won't be working those mines that the worker has built, you want to work the crab.
so you lost some growth for at this time useless improvements.
with your city at size 2-3 and working the improved crabs (5 food) you will be able to get the worker out in time with bronze working. ready to chop or improving some tiles.

 

[Aegis]

Not only would I build a fishing boat right off the bat, I would make sure I was working the tile with the most hammers on it so that the fishing boat would finish as quickly as possible. The growth from the fishing boat will quickly make up for the lost turns growing.

 

[Gaspar~]

Definitely work boat first if you have fishing and seafood. Everything else will come faster because of it.

 

[atreas]

I would recommend that you build a worker then the fishing boat while researching mining. This way you get a worker that can build mines and farms (since you start with agriculture) right out of the box. As your city grows during the boat building process, you manufacturing capability gets more powerful and you will not have to chop a warrier to go with your first settler.

You take some things for granted, like the "start with Agriculture". In fact the score "Agriculture - Fishing" is a tie to 6-6: there are 5 civs that start with Fishing, 5 that start with Agriculture, and one (Americans) that starts with both.

So I would advise to check better your starting technologies, and if it happens to be fishing and not mining or agriculture (for example, Spanish or Greeks) you definitely must get this boat. If you have fishing and mining I'd say it's close and depends on whether you happen to see gold or silver into the box, and in most other cases it's usually best to start with a worker.

 

[TCGTRF]

You take some things for granted, like the "start with Agriculture". In fact the score "Agriculture - Fishing" is a tie to 6-6: there are 5 civs that start with Fishing, 5 that start with Agriculture, and one (Americans) that starts with both.

So I would advise to check better your starting technologies, and if it happens to be fishing and not mining or agriculture (for example, Spanish or Greeks) you definitely must get this boat. If you have fishing and mining I'd say it's close and depends on whether you happen to see gold or silver into the box, and in most other cases it's usually best to start with a worker.

If you're England, (fishing and mining) you're much better off making a worker first, then chopping the workboat.

Tom

 

[atreas]

If you're England, (fishing and mining) you're much better off making a worker first, then chopping the workboat.

Tom

Chopping? In the start of the game? You are missing BW yet, and usually you have enough time to build both a worker and a boat in the meanwhile: so it really depends on what else the worker has to do before BW (which takes some time, anyway, to research). In fact it's rather the other way round: you gain some turns for the worker by building first a workboat.

 

[Tomb.]

On time setting normal (standard) you get BW exactly the same turn (+- 1) as the worker, if you have mining as a starting tech, after that you can begin improving the land tiles for your fast growing ctiy.

And yes, it would also like to see some maths on that.

 

[emills]

@atreas,

The OP stated that he had picked the Americans as his civ. The OP also stated he has flood plains, which mean money (better science) and food. By picking a worker (60 hammers+food) over the fishing boat (30 hammers only), he will most likely get the worker before the boat. Working the clams (coast coins) or floodplains (river coin) to build the worker will give better science and get the mining tech faster. After the boat is built, I would build a lighthouse to make the clams even more powerful. That would mean researching sailing sooner than most players would.

For other civs, it may vary some. Much will be starting location dependent.

 

[Tomb.]

ahh yes, americans dont have mining. how could i forget this? In this case wb first.

 

[TCGTRF]

Chopping? In the start of the game? You are missing BW yet, and usually you have enough time to build both a worker and a boat in the meanwhile: so it really depends on what else the worker has to do before BW (which takes some time, anyway, to research). In fact it's rather the other way round: you gain some turns for the worker by building first a workboat.

If you are England, with a coastal start, it will take you approximately the same number of turns to make a worker as it will to research bronzeworking, since you already have mining. Once that happens, you will have your workboat at the end of your first chop.

If you try to make the workboat first, since the workboat takes hammers only you have to make sure that you're working a tile that will provide those hammers. This means that you have to make a choice between working that fish tile and growing the city faster or working a land tile to get an additional hammer. This means, in this case, the justification (that the city will grow while you're making the workboat, which will not apply for a worker) for doing the workboat first really doesn't apply.

There is no real need to make the boat first, since that will often, depending on how far away the fish are, leave you with turns after you finish the BW research in which you have no worker to take advantage of it.

Now, this is a special case and is only applicable to England. In the rest of the civilizations' cases, I would make the workboat first.

Tom

 

[exitpoll]

A very important issue has been left out of this discussion: Commerce.
Especially at higher levels (monarch and above) you have to maximize commerce early on in order to keep up science-wise.

Building work-boat before worker allows you to grow and work additional tiles with extra commerce. Also, the fishing boats provides instant additional commerce once it's working.

So I would always go for the boat before worker.

 

[TCGTRF]

A very important issue has been left out of this discussion: Commerce.
Especially at higher levels (monarch and above) you have to maximize commerce early on in order to keep up science-wise.

Building work-boat before worker allows you to grow and work additional tiles with extra commerce. Also, the fishing boats provides instant additional commerce once it's working.

So I would always go for the boat before worker.

I don't believe that it provides more commerce instantly. As far as I remember, the fishing boat adds one additional food for clams and two additional food for a fish tile when it is working them.

Now, once you're in a situation where you're trading, excess fish and clams can improve your lot, but certainly not at that early a point in the game.

The main reason I would make the workboat first in the case of Washington would be that I'd have 10-12 turns before I needed to start a worker.

Tom

 

[KillerCardinal]

I don't believe that it provides more commerce instantly. As far as I remember, the fishing boat adds one additional food for clams and two additional food for a fish tile when it is working them.
Tom

I'm fairly sure that fish will add 3 food and clams adds 2 food.

Could be wrong though

 

[JerichoHill]

emills provided the best advice.

Your strategy is very start-specific...

Have you scouted?
What resources do you have?
Can you defend yourself with few resources?
Will you be in contact with neighbors soon?