Fixed Borders Overhaul - Claiming Territory

[Afforess]

New Claiming Territory System:

Any Unit that can pillage will be able to claim territory. Claimed territory will be claimed for as long as you have Control Points in the territory.

Control Points:
When a unit claims a territory, the territory has several control points added to it. The exact number varies with the unit, depending on which era the unit if from. Ancient era units will deposit the least control, while future units will deposit the most.

Control Points By Era Breakdown:
(Scaled For Gamespeed. This list is for Normal Speed)

Ancient Era: 6
Classical Era: 8
Medieval Era: 10
Industrial Era: 13
Modern Era: 15
Trans-Human Era: 20
Future Era: 30

Each turn that a tile has none of your units that can claim territory, it loses 1 control point. If you have 1 unit on the tile, it will lose, nor gain any. Every unit above the first unit causes the tile to gain control points, up to it's maximum total control points. If the current amount of control points exceeds the maximum control points, it will lose one each turn, regardless of how many units are on the tile. The maximum control points is determined by this formula:

Era Points * 1.5 + (Strength of all your units on the tile / 10).

(E.g If two of your warriors claimed a tile, the maximum control points that could be earned on it would be 9. Once it reached 9, it would stop gaining extra control points. Then, if both warriors left, one control point would be lost each turn, until there were no points remaining.)

Tiles with control points in them belong to the owner of the control points, regardless of who has the most (if any) culture in the tile. Once a tile has been claimed, it can not be claimed twice, until it runs out of control points and returns to the previous owner.

New Promotions:

• Defender I:
  • Requires Combat I
  • 20% More Initial Control Points
• Defender II:
  • Requires Defender I and Combat II
  • 25% More Initial Control Points
• Defender III:
  • Requires Defender II and Combat III
  • 35% More Initial Control Points
  
  
  
• Governor I:
  • Requires Combat I
  • + 1 Control Point Per Turn in Claimed Territories
• Governor II:
  • Requires Governor I
  • + 1 Control Point Per Turn in Claimed Territories
• Governor III:
  • Governor II
  • + 2 Control Points Per Turn in Claimed Territories
  
  
  
• Conqueror I:
  • Requires Combat I
  • -1 Additional Control Point Per Turn in Enemy Claimed Territories
• Conqueror II:
  • Requires Conqueror I
  • -1 Additional Control Point Per Turn in Enemy Claimed Territories
• Conqueror III:
  • Conqueror II
  • -2 Additional Control Point Per Turn in Enemy Claimed Territories

Comments, Suggestions?

 

[dudeSDCA]

Interesting concept. Will using forts with fixed borders on still continue to give you control of 9 squares? Do you need to keep defenders in the forts to maintain control?

 

[Afforess]

Yes, and Yes. This is just an overhaul of the claiming territory, all the other features are left as-is.

 

[climat]

How about adding control points to forts also?

 

[dexter_inside]

Are Recon and/or Worker unit classes going to receive any control points?

 

[Afforess]

How about adding control points to forts also?

Tiles that forts are on can be claimed... so hmm.. I need to think about how I will handle them.

Are Recon and/or Worker unit classes going to receive any control points?

Only units that can pillage, so no for workers. I can't recall if Recon can pillage or not.

 

[dexter_inside]

How about adding control points to forts also?

On that theme, could we also get some control points bonuses from Himeji Samurai Castle and Edinburgh? Would make them much more worthwhile

 

[Arakhor]

This sounds interesting, but I think I'd have to see it in play. Will naval claiming still be off by default?

 

[Tomcat1962]

New Claiming Territory System:
Any Unit that can pillage will be able to claim territory. Claimed territory will be claimed for as long as you have Control Points in the territory.

May I ask what negative game events were the reason to think about this new system?
Can't think of any and haven't met any in my games. I like the current way very much and find it nearly flawless and perfect.

Tiles with control points in them belong to the owner of the control points, regardless of who has the most (if any) culture in the tile. Once a tile has been claimed, it can not be claimed twice, until it runs out of control points and returns to the previous owner.
(...)

Would this mean that, if you conquer a tile that was previously owned/claimed by another civ, you have to wait a certain time until the enemy control-points run out before you can claim this tile, even with some units on it?
If yes, i'm not so sure if this would be a good idea and if i would like this. Immediately possession, like it is now fits better i think.

Maybe the invention of another layer of control points is a to much complicated way (because it's a additional layer you have to think about in game).
Alternatively, what about the presence of units automatic spreading culture to the tile they are on?

 

[Afforess]

May I ask what negative game events were the reason to think about this new system?
Can't think of any and haven't met any in my games. I like the current way very much and find it nearly flawless and perfect.

Really? The general consensus is that the way territory claiming works now is totally useless. Your the first person to praise it, ever.

Would this mean that, if you conquer a tile that was previously owned/claimed by another civ, you have to wait a certain time until the enemy control-points run out before you can claim this tile, even with some units on it?
If yes, i'm not so sure if this would be a good idea and if i would like this. Immediately possession, like it is now fits better i think.

You can claim already claimed territory if your unit can put enough control points into the territory to flip it.

Say you move a crossbowman onto a claimed territory with 5 enemy control points. Because the crossbowman can claim with 10 points, it can claim the territory, expending 5 points to cleanse the tile, and putting the other 5 points in the tile, for a net change of 10. However, if the tile still had 11 control points, you would need to wait until it dropped down to 9 to claim it.

Maybe the invention of another layer of control points is a to much complicated way (because it's a additional layer you have to think about in game).
Alternatively, what about the presence of units automatic spreading culture to the tile they are on?

Already considered it first. It would dilute culture and make it meaningless. No way.

 

[konradcabral]

Won't the addition of another variable, Control Points, a weight to the system?

 

[Sonereal]

Did you know I was about to come in here and make a thread about FB?

I love this idea. It looks like it would work out perfectly. My only question is whether some existing Promos should be changed or expanded. For instance, City Patrol (or something like that) could potentially see a chance. The Strategic Control promo for Great Commanders could maybe increase the Control Points given off by neighboring units?

On another note: Some units that can pillage seem like they would be rather poor for holding territory or as "garrison" troops on occupied territory. Most mounted units and tanks fall into this category. Now, I can see how they would aid occupying troops but not how they could hold the fort down themselves.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

I'm not disapponted in this new system, but I really like the way fixed borders works now and I think this just sounds more complex than it needs to be. I think it makes more sense now that if your unit walks off a claimed tile you lose it instantly.

I don't mind the new system, but the promotions disappointed me the most. I can't imagine how the AI will handle them. I have already seen AI get tundra defense when they are in the middle of a desert. I'd hate to see AI go for these promotions and not even use Fixed Borders.

 

[Afforess]

I'm not disapponted in this new system, but I really like the way fixed borders works now and I think this just sounds more complex than it needs to be. I think it makes more sense now that if your unit walks off a claimed tile you lose it instantly.

Sure, it makes sense, but from a gameplay perspective, it makes claiming territory totally useless. Can you name three situations in which claiming territory is useful currently? I know I can't.

I don't mind the new system, but the promotions disappointed me the most. I can't imagine how the AI will handle them. I have already seen AI get tundra defense when they are in the middle of a desert. I'd hate to see AI go for these promotions and not even use Fixed Borders.

"Think of The AI" is a terrible excuse. If the AI's a problem, I'll just rewrite it.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

Sure, it makes sense, but from a gameplay perspective, it makes claiming territory totally useless. Can you name three situations in which claiming territory is useful currently? I know I can't.

Yes. I use them to
*Secure faraway resources so I don't have to deal with revolutions.
*Secure the outer regions of my borders before the other civilizations take over the outer regions.
*Create an area to heal or promote my units in enemy territory.

But I'd say you are right about the AI part. I just can't imagine taking more control points over more unit strength personally.

 

[Afforess]

Yes. I use them to
*Secure faraway resources so I don't have to deal with revolutions.
*Secure the outer regions of my borders before the other civilizations take over the outer regions.
*Create an area to heal or promote my units in enemy territory.

1.) How? Do you have road networks in the wildnerness. Admittedly, the OP's changes wouldn't change this, just curious how you manage to find this useful.

2.) I've never had enough units to spare.

3.) Ok.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

1.) How? Do you have road networks in the wildnerness. Admittedly, the OP's changes wouldn't change this, just curious how you manage to find this useful.

2.) I've never had enough units to spare.

3.) Ok.

1) It is useful when the closest Iron is like on an island out in the middle of nowhere, or out in an area that the AI didn't happen to get to yet. Usually, if the resource is close to the coast, you can just build a fort on the coast and an improvement on the resource. If not, then I run a road through wilderness.

2) I usually have access to most resources, so I usually only make a couple forts (for resources) per game. I can spare 3 or 4 units. EDIT: I forgot that number 2 was for borders. I still have units to spare though.

 

[Iceciro]

I find territory control really useful to hold a line in limited UPT games.

What I do not like in this current system is that, apparently, barring Conqueror promotions, a territory will lose control points at the same rate as long as the original owning civ's units are in the area - IE: having my units in a Controlled square doesn't make the enemy's control revert faster.

Is this supposed to be soely taken care of by the fact that my units will create control too, and thus should eventually surpass the control in the enemy's square?

Also, is there any way we could make cities radiate control points, say a decent number, but enough that eventually a unit dug into a nearby square can take one of the nine squares from the city? I understand that for non-limited UPT games it may be a matter of marching up a big enough stack to the door, but for say, a three-unit per tile game, the investment of turns required to have a decent number of Control points should balance out the fact that you are taking one of a cities' inner ring tiles.

 

[Killtech]

so basically you the only thing that changes is that claimed tiles take some turns to decay instead of instantly swapping the owner. this is a good change as long as it doesn't take too long (because it moves towards the old system).

however you should be aware that the exact amount of turns a tile says in your possession is uninteresting for a player. it's usually enough to know that the tile won't be lost if one moves away for a few turns to block some enemy units. but what difference does it make if the tile turns after 10 or 15 turns after you move away? if you want to keep it you will need to station troops there anyway. thus it makes little sense to give players the possibility to modify the control points values with a promotion. a simpler system is preferable here just dependent on the units count.

furthermore you should think of the max/min initial control points values. they shouldn't get too high because 50 turns are nearly an infinity in the game reached industrial age when every civ is well developed. i prefer shorter alternatives of 1 to 10 turns independently of the age (this option should not scale with game speed just as units movement doesn't)

next thing: territory that is surrounded by own territory should not lose control points. territory should decay only form the borders on.

i also am personally against claiming territory far off your borders. i think that you should be allowed to claim tiles that are at your borders only. with forts giving you territory this would be the only possibility to claim distant territory.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you have the great wall then claiming territory also protects you from barbarians, very useful against all those barbs coming at you out of the tundra. Unfortunately it appears that my favorite civics no longer have fixed boarders (beta4) so there is not much point in me using this mod.