Fixing the victory conditions

Dale, you're pretty much wrong about Culture (which is, according to T-Hawk is the easiest victory condition available) and diplomatic (just ask TMIT) victories.

If anything requires turn 1 planning, it's conquest/domination.

also, *slaps Dale* (sorry) for implying that changing a feature for realism's sake is a good idea (you thinking that folding to demands increasing an AI's love of you is a bad thing to have in the game because it'd never work in reality).
 
Dale, I just think the problem with it is Civ is all about specialization, so I think it makes more sense to have specialized victory conditions instead of just broad general victory conditions. I agree that victory conditions need to be improved, but I don't like your approach to doing it. I just think the different conditions all need to be balanced instead of having a single condition for overall gameplay. I like beginning my games thinking "I'll try for this type of victory this game..." instead of just thinking "I'll play good and win." I like having the specialized victory conditions more. It would be a great mod though, but I wouldn't want Firaxis to implement it.

Insanity, you might want to cool it with the *slaps*, it's rude and getting pretty old.
 
Hey Dale. Haven't had a chance to peruse the entire thread, so apologies if I duplicate anything. Are you familiar with the Mastery Victory mod originally put together by Sevo for CivIV? It seems to have a similar premise to what you're putting forward. Check the BtS version here to see what I mean:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354481&highlight=Mastery+Victory+Mod

On a related note, to make this victory even better, you could add in the various civ-specific victories introduced by Rhye in RFC. I think that, if combined, you could have a victory system which is truly achievable throughout the entire game, yet still entirely satisfying should you achieve it :)!

Aussie.
 
BTW, don't bother too much with Ahriman's negative comments Dale, as I find he struggles to understand most people's ideas-no matter how good they are (& is also quick to point out so-called "flaws", without ever proving why they're flaws). To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why he's here, given that it sounds like he prefers the Churn & Burn approach to victory seen in games like "Rise of Nations". Each to their own I guess ;)!

Moderator Action: Debate his points, rather than attack the poster.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Hey Dale. Haven't had a chance to peruse the entire thread, so apologies if I duplicate anything. Are you familiar with the Mastery Victory mod originally put together by Sevo for CivIV? It seems to have a similar premise to what you're putting forward. Check the BtS version here to see what I mean:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354481&highlight=Mastery+Victory+Mod

On a related note, to make this victory even better, you could add in the various civ-specific victories introduced by Rhye in RFC. I think that, if combined, you could have a victory system which is truly achievable throughout the entire game, yet still entirely satisfying should you achieve it :)!

Aussie.

Mastery is a great victory condition, but it's still just a point in time victory. The score is based on the end result, not how you got there. What I'm proposing is to score the path you took to the end. :)

Nothing personal against Rhye, but I couldn't think of anything worse than adding in those scripted forced victory conditions. I've made opinion clear on scripted history, so I won't go into it. :)
 
Dale, I just think the problem with it is Civ is all about specialization, so I think it makes more sense to have specialized victory conditions instead of just broad general victory conditions. I agree that victory conditions need to be improved, but I don't like your approach to doing it. I just think the different conditions all need to be balanced instead of having a single condition for overall gameplay. I like beginning my games thinking "I'll try for this type of victory this game..." instead of just thinking "I'll play good and win." I like having the specialized victory conditions more. It would be a great mod though, but I wouldn't want Firaxis to implement it.

Insanity, you might want to cool it with the *slaps*, it's rude and getting pretty old.

Umm...... you're misunderstanding the concept. Each victory path is still separate. It's not a "mastery victory mod" type of victory condition. My proposal allows for 6 victory types. If you want to be a warmonger, you can and win the conquest victory. If you want to pursue a diplomacy victory, you can. My proposal is in no way a "you must do well at all victory types". But what you can do with my proposal is, if you win a culture victory, you can then opt to continue playing for a cultural + financial + conquest victory if you want.

My proposal fully supports and pushes specialisation, it just allows for different types of play. But the real point of this proposal is that it rewards for HOW you play, not just the end result. :)
 
Dale, you're pretty much wrong about Culture (which is, according to T-Hawk is the easiest victory condition available) and diplomatic (just ask TMIT) victories.

Culture, if you don't play a certain way the whole game (concentrating on wonders and culture buildings) then you won't win a culture victory. Yes they're extremely easy, but you need to prepare for it from the start. If you don't find stone and marble early, are you going to get a culture victory? The chances become slim.

With diplomatic, you piss of an AI and it won't vote for you. I've lost diplomatic victories because I pissed of a single AI near the crucial moment.

If anything requires turn 1 planning, it's conquest/domination.

No it doesn't. Many a game I've played I've been happily going along, take a couple of civs, then suddenly find that there's only one left. Conquest does not require turn 1 planning. Most of my conquest victories just happen.

also, *slaps Dale* (sorry) for implying that changing a feature for realism's sake is a good idea (you thinking that folding to demands increasing an AI's love of you is a bad thing to have in the game because it'd never work in reality).

Stop with the slapping or I'll kick your bloody ass mate. :mad:

Continuously folding to an AI to "keep it happy" is a doormat diplomacy victory. Where is the strategy in continuously clicking "OK sure, you can have that"? A diplomacy victory should be based on how honourable and respected you are diplomatically. Not how fast you can bend over for the AI's.

Buying votes is BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD! Because then it's not a diplomacy victory, but a gold victory.
 
This looks to me like it would just be a more complicated version of a time victory, or am I misunderstanding it?

I like having a single goal aswell.
 
On the subject of cultural victories not requiring to be played for from t1, those kooky variant lovers at Realms Beyond would disagree. With diplo, it is perfectly possible to win this way even if a bunch of AIs hate you.
You just need them to like you one hell of a lot more then they hate them. See: TMIT's first Let's Play CIV video series.

Yeah, if there was one slap I'd take back (also, say arse. I do. But maybe that's a British thing and Aussies dont pronounce it properly either), it would be that one. However, the whole 'Bend over backwards' thing can be rationalised (mentally) for a diplo victory. If you're giving in to whatever they say it gives them the impression that you'll do whatever they want, and by voting you into power as world leader, they see themselves as world leader (after all, you're their puppet) but with a convenient fall guy.
 
On the subject of cultural victories not requiring to be played for from t1, those kooky variant lovers at Realms Beyond would disagree.

And I'd be able to find a heap of people who would agree. Besides, you say "kooky variant lovers", in other words, people who don't play it default.

With diplo, it is perfectly possible to win this way even if a bunch of AIs hate you.
You just need them to like you one hell of a lot more then they hate them. See: TMIT's first Let's Play CIV video series.

It's still "buy a vote". If there is a vote you want you buy it. Diplo victory is the simplest of victories in the game.

Yeah, if there was one slap I'd take back (also, say arse. I do. But maybe that's a British thing and Aussies dont pronounce it properly either), it would be that one. However, the whole 'Bend over backwards' thing can be rationalised (mentally) for a diplo victory. If you're giving in to whatever they say it gives them the impression that you'll do whatever they want, and by voting you into power as world leader, they see themselves as world leader (after all, you're their puppet) but with a convenient fall guy.

Like I said, diplomatic victory should NOT be for whoever bent over more. It should represent good diplomacy. And that still opens the option for war. If an ally requests aid, you join the war. Attacking a "villain" state. Establishing a bloc to limit the power of a rogue. This is all positive good diplomacy.
 
So the idea of all successes counting towards a goal is my favorite too...but don't we have that already in the form of the Civ Score?

No. Score is actually a very narrow measure; it measures population, area, technology and Wonders. That's it.
 
Fair enough Dale, I can understand your reasons for avoiding scripted victory conditions-though I do find them kind of fun ;).

-So anyway, I do like the idea of Scales of Influence, but the trick is to avoid one victory type completely dominating over every other (at least in my opinion). So, for example, if a player wants to win a Military Victory, they can ramp up the Military SoI, but the other victory types shouldn't disappear altogether. Hope that makes sense.

-also, to make the economic SoI more interesting, you could also have it based on control of resources. Maybe controlling 66% of a single resource (say sugar) grants you points towards the economic SoI, with each successive resource monopoly granting you a little less each time. So you get *big* points for monopolizing 1 resource type, medium points for the 2nd resource type, small points for the 3rd resource type & no points for the 4th & above.
Of course, how you achieve said monopoly will play into the points you get elsewhere (via conquest=military, via trade=diplomacy, via expansion=expansion/culture).

Aussie.
 
All of that would show through extensive testing. :)
 
While I agree with the sentiment that the victory conditions need work, I'm not sure this diachronic approach Dale suggests is the way to go. The classic victories (with the possible exception of cultural) all have the advantage of a clear "finish line" that makes intuitive sense. When you win, you know why you win: it's because you've conquered the world, or colonized Alpha Centauri, or been elected President of Earth, or whatever. It's not because you've crossed some abstract and invisible threshold.

Dale, when you complain that victory is based on end-states and does not measure how well the player played, I'm not sure where you're coming from. In any game of skill, the end-state reflects overall play quality implicitly. The sport of baseball doesn't need to directly reward teams for high batting averages or the number of steals, because these qualities all contribute the the one number that does matter: the score.

So I say keep the victory conditions simple and understandable, but rewrite them so that pursuing them results in actions that makes more sense. For example, the Civ4 cultural victory is really counterintuitive: building a wonder in any city except your three culture supercenters is a major opportunity cost, and to be avoided if at all possible. And conversely, building Hollywood in a city that's already going to hit legendary turns before the other two was also a waste. The game needs to find a balanced way to reward all cultural achievement, just as the space race victory rewards all scientific progress and production. I haven't played CivRev, but its "20 cultural events" version of the cultural victory sounds like it would do the trick.

Or, for something a little deeper, imagine an adjustment to the culture system: your cities spread your civilization's culture into all foreign cities they're trading partners with, in amounts depending on their overall cultural output of course. This could serve as a simple replacement for espionage: the more of your culture is in a foreign city relative to its native culture, the more you can see about that city. Also, the city's war weariness against you would be higher, and perhaps a "reverse war weariness" could produce happiness when diplomatic relations between the two civs are good. (I'm not sure this is entirely realistic: look at attitudes toward America in the modern world, either despite or because of America's cultural hegemony. But it's intuitive, and rewards good play.) Cultural victory is achieved when your culture is stronger in each other player's territory than their own - specific metric to be determined.

Since this mechanic works through trade routes, it encourages exploration and trade agreements. No longer can you sit on an isolated island and somehow dominate world culture without ever meeting another civilization! (Yes, I've done this.) In fact, I can even see this form of cultural victory subsuming the diplomatic victory, which would neatly kill two birds with one stone, since the current diplomatic victory system is also horrible. The diplomacy-culture exchange could work both ways: foreign citizens like you more the more of your culture is in their city, and your culture spreads more effectively the more those citizens like you. And the new United Nations might, oh, cause all foreign cultural spread in your cities to be automatically returned in kind.

So that's my brainstorm. I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement, but I think it's at least the kernel of a good idea.

EDIT: Imagine oppressive forms of government are more effective at stifling the spread of foreign culture - perhaps even providing options for removing that culture. This would make the propagation of liberal values through diplomacy a natural means to the end of cultural victory.
 
A problem with this suggestion is that it doesn't encourage flexibility during the game - optimal play will be to work out what victory condition will suit your situation as early as possible and focus on this for the rest of the game. Towards the end, you may be sacrificing troops/cities so you can cram everything into the economy, which shouldn't mean you deserve to win the game imo.

I actually like the combined prestige (essentially an overall score) idea best, with a easy to see breakdown of what drives your score (ie 100 pop = 100 points, 100 techs researched = 200 points etc). Victory condition could be something like requiring twice the score of your nearest rival, or having 40% of the worldwide score - both with a minimum of 1000 points. I'd ideally like something fairly low to avoid the 'I know I've won this game but have to grind it out' problem.

It encourages flexibility and interesting decisions - will I be more likely to get those extra points I need to win by research, military, economy or population (I'd ditch diplo influence)? Or a combination of the above?
 
I'm not sure this diachronic approach Dale suggests is the way to go.

Which Civ deserves the win:
- Civ1 leads in research most of the game, is situated between a couple of other Civs. Civ1 beats all other Civs to the space race and begins building. Civ2 declares war on Civ1 and due to the interuption of war Civ3 is able to sneak past and Snatch & Grab (tm) a space victory.

Which Civ deserves the win:
- Civ1 has been a warmonger, taking Civ after Civ. Civ1 leads all on power by a long way by carefully choosing targets and having wars of opportunity. Civ1 is on course for a big conquest win. Civ2, who hasn't done much all game, comes out of nowhere to build the UN and because everyone hates Civ1 Civ2 is able to Snatch & Grab (tm) a diplomacy victory.

Which Civ deserves the win:
- Civ1 is isolated on an island, but through careful espionage and tech trading is able to keep up the science race. Civ2 is able to take over a number of Civs and grow quite large. Civ1 starts building the spaceship but it's going to be a close call with Civ3 on the space race. Civ2 is able to Snatch & Grab (tm) a domination victory.

So who deserves the win? The player who's worked hard all game, making tough decisions and working through situations? Or the player who comes out of nowhere to Snatch & Grab (tm) a fluke win because they met a couple of criteria at a certain point in time?
 
I know I just suggested merging the diplomatic victory with the cultural, but I now that I think about it, it looks like the "vote for the winner" system could be made to work as well. The key is to avoid the weirdness that bonafide11 put his finger on, that voting for another civ is simply always against your self-interest. So how does this sound? AIs will not vote for you just because they like you. Rather, their vote is a trade item, which you have to negotiate for. Naturally, a friendly attitude will still assist negotiations, but it won't be automatic. And, of course, you can offer your vote to someone else if you want something from them. This makes the United Nations vote effectively a gambling game: if Caesar gives Gandhi his vote, he's betting that Gandhi won't be able to collect enough other votes by the next election, in which case he's gotten something for nothing. But if Gandhi does collect enough votes, of course, the something-for-nothing doesn't matter. So it seems to me like there could be an interesting game dynamic here.

It may be hard to balance, though, and a lot would depend on making the AI's votes accessible without being too easy to get.
 
So who deserves the win? The player who's worked hard all game, making tough decisions and working through situations? Or the player who comes out of nowhere to Snatch & Grab (tm) a fluke win because they met a couple of criteria at a certain point in time?
"Snatch & Grab" is a loaded term, and I don't think it's a fair description of what's happening here. If your civilization is in a position to "snatch" the victory as you describe, it's not a fluke; you've played well, and deserve the victory. In practice, some victory conditions may be a little too easy (and too hard for your opponents to counter), but this is a problem of implementation; the principle is sound. Consider chess: your opponent can be taking piece after piece, but if in exchange for those pieces you get in position to execute a "surprise" checkmate, you win, and fairly so. Your opponent was too focused on his strategy, and didn't keep an eye on the whole board.

Returning to Civ, I'm actually quite confident that one reason the game has multiple victory conditions is for exactly these situations: it allows civs who are behind in one aspect of the game to still capitalize on their other options and win. This smashes the unstable equilibrium, keeping victories from being foregone conclusions dozens of turns before the end. A race to conquer a scientific civ before they build their spaceship is exciting.
 
We'll see how Civ5 tackles it. But I'd still like to see more weight on how you play the game, not just being able to meet a set of criteria at a certain point in time.
 
Dale,
Those "Snatch & Grabs" are a reflection of the fact that a Civilization needs to be competent in ALL areas even if they only excel in one.
They are important factors, they also make it a Race.... ie can I pull out this cultural victory before someone else gets a Space Victory, etc.

Your concepts seem like they are basically all "Time Victories".

Having the "Crossing line" is important

Some of your Ideas that are Good

1. "Score Breakdown"... have a more complicated Collection of Scores... so that as the game goes on you get a Military Score, Economic Score, Tech Score, etc.
This way you are not only the Winner, but you get to be on Several Score boards.... Including an Overall that can rank your Overall performance (not just sum them up)

2. Making Diplomacy better.... A Diplomatic Victory should NOT be a Single player only victory (nor should it be a backdoor domination victory)

As for that, the only "Realistic" diplomatic Victory is some type of Shared Victory... but for that to happen, it cannot be too easy. All the Civs that 'achieve' the victory must have accomplished something. (perhaps they need to sink something into it.... make the Diplomacy win a 'Prisoner's dilemma'... so that other civ's can backout... and are afraid they won't get the win.)

I think that is the problem with the Diplomatic win, there are only two possible outcomes in the game
Win=1
Lose=0


However, IF there was no Winner/Loser (unless you were eliminated) and they Weren't "Victory Conditions" but "Game Enders"... that also gave you a lot of points. then that would work.

Basically change the game to
Win= You Stood the test of time, Your civ still Exists at the 'end of the game'
Loss= You Died

And the you could have
Win... with 1,000,000 points
or
Win with 10,000 points (you are reduced to your island city)... but still a win.

So You would vote for the One World Government for fear that if you didn't you would be eliminated entirely. (ie score 100 v. LOSE)

Perhaps make it like MOO2... any Civ not voting for the UN Win has the ability to resist the new Government....an alliance of all the players that decided not to resist. IF you Voted for the One World Government then you get extra points.
 
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