Fixing the "Viking" civilization

Optimizer

Sthlm, SWE
Joined
Dec 29, 2001
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692
I have not got Warlords yet, but I am already disappointed of the portrayal of the "Viking civilization". The greatest mistakes are:

* The Vikings have never been a civilization, nation, state or tribe. "Viking" was a profession or a lifestyle. Most people living in northern Europe during the Viking ages were farmers who never travelled far or fought battles, and might never have met a viking.

* The Scandinavian peoples did not cease to exist after the 11th century. They have continued to have a decisive impact on military, economic, scientific and cultural history until present day. (Norway was the first country to reach the South Pole, Sweden has discovered 20 elements, and Denmark has made the Muslim world go crazy about Mohammad cartoons.)

* Ragnar Lodbrok is the only leader featured in Civ 4 with a doubtful existence. There are many well-documented and famous leaders from the Viking Age or later - so why take a semi-legendary one?

* Horned helmets are a myth. Several helmets from the Viking age have been preserved, none with horns.

Some of the problems can be overlooked:

* Are the Norse a homogenous nation? Today, the Norwegians, Danes, Swedes and Icelanders are divided into four sovereign countries. However, this has only been the case for 101 years. During the late Middle ages, these countries formed the Kalmar Union, and from 1523 to 1905 there were only two sovereign Nordic countries (Denmark and Sweden). From a historical perspective, Scandinavia is good enough. Finland (part of the Nordic countries, but not of Scandinavia) is too culturally different to fit in, and deserves its own civilization.

* The units speak modern Norwegian, presumably a Trondheim dialect of "bokmål". Other languages and dialects (especially Icelandic) might be closer to Old Norse, but of all contemporary Nordic dialects, this might be the easiest to understand by other Scandinavians.

So, what should be done?

* Rename the Viking civilization to the "Norse". This civilization would represent all native speakers of Nordic languages during all ages.

* Change the leaderhead to a real historical person. My suggestion is Margaret (Drottning Margareta) - who ruled Sweden, Denmark and Norway and founded the Kalmar Union. Graphics can be obtained by bleaching Isabella's hair. Additional leaders could be Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf) - who won the 30 year war, and Tage Erlander - the longest-serving democratic head of government ever.

* Consider changing the unique building. "Trading posts" are no specialty of real-world Scandinavia, and from a gameplay perspective they are only useful on maps with lots of water. A "Thing" (Norse for "council", representing the millennial Scandinavian tradition of local democracy) as a culture-producing Courthouse would be much more suitable.

* Consider changing the flag to the flag of the Kalmar Union - yellow with a red cross. All Nordic countries have cross flags, and this design should be the most neutral.
 
Not as long as I haven't got Warlords.
 
I'd support that.
 
Tell me though, Optimizer, is the Legendary Seafaring exploits of the Norse people historically accurate? If yes, then I would prefer to see any unique building of the Norse civilization provide additional benefits to seafaring units (as the trading post currently does). I just feel that as long as seafaring nations are in the game, with a seagoing unique building, then there is always the chance that they will improve this element of the game in later patches and expansions. Plus, we already have a UB based on a Courthouse, so would rather see the Norse UB be TRULY unique.
Still, on all the other counts I agree with you 100%!

Aussie_Lurker.
 
With a UU like the Berserk and a UB like the Trading Post, if you're playing as the Vikings and not playing on a map with a lot of water, you're being foolish. I like the idea of certain civs that are better on different kinds of maps.
 
I am quite glad that someone else has noticed all of the obnoxious errors about the 'viking' civilization, the horns, the name, the silly UU.

So what do we do about it?
 
Your suggestion for the Thing is excellent. I'd support that 100%. Norse culture did seem to take root very quickly, especially in the British Isles and France, when they conqured somewhere. This is probably, as you say, in part due to their Democracy (a Democracy that existed over 1000 years ago).
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
Tell me though, Optimizer, is the Legendary Seafaring exploits of the Norse people historically accurate? If yes, then I would prefer to see any unique building of the Norse civilization provide additional benefits to seafaring units (as the trading post currently does).
Neither England nor Spain have sea-related bonuses. Such a bonus may add to the atmosphere, but gameplay-wise it disrupts balance since it is location-dependent.

In general, I am against civilization-specific buildings and units. Different civilizations have developed different specialties because of their environment, not because of genetic differences. But now they are part of the original game and we will have to accomodate.
 
Maybe I'll redo the viking to a more accurate one. I only need to know what he should look like to be more historical. Maybe you can help me to improvee my knowledge ?

What I think :

Berzerker mean bear, (or bearskin or something like this, I think i"m not sure) so I'll probably keep the berzerker model with the bearskin but I'll change some thing.

-His head, remove the horns of his helmet and maybe his beard (Do you think I should keep his beard)

-Change his animation for the swordman ones. (I think dual axes are more "Fantasy" thant historical)

So waht do you think of this ? All comments are welcome specially from the ones who have better knowledge on nordic and norse history.

-Change his weapon (I do not know if it will ba an axe and a shield or a sword and a shield, what do you think ?)

-Probably add a chainmail armor
 
Top priority is removing Ragnar's helmet horns. Then we'll have a generic Norse model that we can skin to be virtually any male Norse leader.

As for Gustavus Adolphus, Mehmed without the turban (and reskinned, of course) would be perfect. If not, George Washington with a skinned or modeled beard would do nicely.

And Drottning Margareta did look exactly like Isabella with bleached hair, and maybe a different eye color.
 
Queen Kristina of Sweden would also be an interesting leader. The graphics could be based on Victoria. Graphics of Tage Erlander could be based on Roosevelt.
 
Serkur, means something like sack, and could possibly be linked to skinn (the english actually take their sack word from our Serk).

Ber means naked, or un cloathed. We use the same word for berry, but I think it is unlikely that is the reference here.

Why it is thus is unkown I think. The Bersarks certainly wore armour on many ocations. F.x. in Eigils saga, Eigill had to bite into the adams apple of a Bersark that had to heavy an armour to be pierced by convetional weapons

The norwiegan, danish and Icelandic word for Bear is Bjorn. Not sure about the Swedish word.

As for the optimal leader, Margarete would be best I think. She is the only person known to have truly ruled all countries. Harald with alot of hair is also a nice option, since he was the one to unify the viking colonies.

Never have there been found viking horned helms, or are there any references to them in the Sagas.
 
The Civilisation should be The Norse, and the UU should be the Viking.
 
Guiderian said:
Ber means naked, or un cloathed. We use the same word for berry, but I think it is unlikely that is the reference here.

Why it is thus is unkown I think. The Bersarks certainly wore armour on many ocations. F.x. in Eigils saga, Eigill had to bite into the adams apple of a Bersark that had to heavy an armour to be pierced by convetional weapons

The norwiegan, danish and Icelandic word for Bear is Bjorn. Not sure about the Swedish word.
The Swedish word is also "björn", but the old Germanic word was similar to "ber". The etymology of "berserk" is not sure.
 
Hey While your at it could you make a Russian/Finnish Viking Civ?
I always thought that it'd be alot of fun to play a Country founded/Assimilated by Vikings :)
 
Personaly I think that the vikings could have three leaders: One Norwegian, one Swedish and one Danish.

For the Norwegians: Harald Hardråde (Agresive, charismatic, Heredetary rule or vassalage as favourite civic), or Olav Trygvason (Agrresive, Spiritual, theocracy as favourite civic)

For the Swedish: Gustavus Adolphus (Agressive/charismatic, financial/organized, no suggestion to favourite civic).

For the Danish: Margaret I (organized, financial, again no suggestion to favourite civic.)
 
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