[NFP] Flood Barriers and AI Civilizations

[Laurana Kanan]

I've played three games now, post NFP, and in each instance I've yet to see a single major Civ construct Flood Barriers (I give CSs free FBs @ the Atomic Age). Even far into the Information Age and their entire coastline including infrastructure having sunk into the depths, I don't see any city with them.

Afaicr, the AI would somewhat frequently build them pre-NFP. It just seems like now they don't care and instead build irrelevant items. So I was thinking of giving them a Favored Item to see if that'll help, but wanted to gauge first if anyone else has noticed this behavior post-NFP or if my data set has just been too limited.

 

[Pfeffersack]

They very occasionally do, but neither do they seem to pick locations, where a barrier would be most needed nor do they care about if they get built in time (or about augmenting the effort with MP units):

To me it is a problem of flood barriers probably having a very low priority, but it is not surprise to me as long as their highest one seems to be "space-porting" their entire nation...

 

[Laurana Kanan]

To me it is a problem of flood barriers probably having a very low priority, but it is not surprise to me as long as their highest one seems to be "space-porting" their entire nation...

That's why I'm considering adding a specific Favored Item for them. I'm just wondering if it's a bug or if it really is coded that way, 'cause FBs seem to be pretty important infrastructure to have a low priority. If it's a bug then adding a Favored Item won't accomplish much.

I also can't agree enough that there is way too many Spaceports being built by the AI. In just my last game the Inca literally built one in almost every city they had - 10 iirc. At the most, I could see 3 or 4, but 10?!? Once upon a time, I used to enjoy sending a spy around and blowing them all up, but now it just seems tedious. I also saw way too many unnecessary Solar Farms just taking over their territories.

 

[Sostratus]

I also saw way too many unnecessary Solar Farms just taking over their territories.

I think last time this was brought up, it's because they go absolutely bonkers for any improvement that yields power - even if the city doesn't need it!

I also can't agree enough that there is way too many Spaceports being built by the AI.

One would think it would be possible to limit them to say, 3. I understand FXS probably just wanted to make sure the AI would have enough spaceports to win the old science victory, but now you don't produce anything in parallel except the laser stations, which again, you won't be making 10 at once unless you have deep aluminum pockets.

 

[Ticio]

One question about the flood barriers.

If you construct one AFTER the flood, you can recover the flooded tiles or they are lost forever?
I mean be able to repair the districts and extra tiles.

Thank you!

 

[Basajaun]

One question about the flood barriers.

If you construct one AFTER the flood, you can recover the flooded tiles or they are lost forever?
I mean be able to repair the districts and extra tiles.

Thank you!

Nope. It can be worked, but it cannot be repaired. The barriers in Peairt are finished and here Im pointing at a flooded tile. So make sure the walls are up before any flooding happens if you want to keep your coastal tiles workable

Floods

• Basajaun
• Jun 4, 2020

 

[MrRadar]

Nope. It can be worked, but it cannot be repaired. The barriers in Peairt are finished and here Im pointing at a flooded tile. So make sure the walls are up before any flooding happens if you want to keep your coastal tiles workable

Floods

• Basajaun
• Jun 4, 2020

But your barriers are NOT finished, visually they are still under construction.
If you finish FB on tiles that have just began to sink, you can recover them, if you finish FB before the next stage, but if they've sunk already, they're lost.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

One question about the flood barriers.

If you construct one AFTER the flood, you can recover the flooded tiles or they are lost forever?
I mean be able to repair the districts and extra tiles.

Thank you!

"Flooded" tiles can be saved as land tiles with Flood Barriers. "Submerged" tiles (previously flooded tiles are submerged at the next water level increase) are lost as far as being a land tile, but will function and can be worked like any other coastal tile unless there's a District there - it's pretty much lost. In fact, in the same game I mentioned above, the Inca had a submerged land tile that created the conditions that they could begin building the Golden Gate Bridge on.

 

[tedhebert]

I still feel barriers really come too late in the tree... They cost a lot, are available pretty late, it's very hard sometimes to get them in early enough

 

[Basajaun]

But your barriers are NOT finished, visually they are still under construction.
If you finish FB on tiles that have just began to sink, you can recover them, if you finish FB before the next stage, but if they've sunk already, they're lost.

By my beard, you are right. I went to watch the walls in the only city that didnt finish them. Im not sure right now why I stopped building that one and started with the sewer but oh well. I stand corrected.

I still feel barriers really come too late in the tree... They cost a lot, are available pretty late, it's very hard sometimes to get them in early enough

Agreed. In normal game modes its almost reasonable, but with the accelerated raise of sea level in apocalypse mode its quite tricky. If Valletta is in the game, they make barriers absolutely trivial, but its not that common to find them

 

[Avenger237]

I think last time this was brought up, it's because they go absolutely bonkers for any improvement that yields power - even if the city doesn't need it!


One would think it would be possible to limit them to say, 3. I understand FXS probably just wanted to make sure the AI would have enough spaceports to win the old science victory, but now you don't produce anything in parallel except the laser stations, which again, you won't be making 10 at once unless you have deep aluminum pockets.

I doubt the AI is thinking this deep but in one game, I did find myself building a ton of spaceports as I was short of aluminium and didn't want to start a war; you can run the aerospace contractors card and get +3 aluminium per turn for each city with a spaceport

 

[Pfeffersack]

I doubt the AI is thinking this deep but in one game, I did find myself building a ton of spaceports as I was short of aluminium and didn't want to start a war; you can run the aerospace contractors card and get +3 aluminium per turn for each city with a spaceport

I will try that approach the next time I'm short on Aluminium. In case of the AI, I would be fine if some civs would do it for that purpose and built up a fearsome air force afterwards. But as you say, it is more likely that the AI has no real strategy at all behind spaceport-spamming.

 

[Sostratus]

I doubt the AI is thinking this deep but in one game, I did find myself building a ton of spaceports as I was short of aluminium and didn't want to start a war; you can run the aerospace contractors card and get +3 aluminium per turn for each city with a spaceport

They have been spaceport spamming for a long time. I really like that card, but it just comes soooo late that unless you are doing something odd it’s not that impactful. Although it makes for great late game domination...

. If Valletta is in the game, they make barriers absolutely trivial, but its not that common to find them

The approach is to utilize high production cities to churn out Military engineers and send them where needed, since they can rush 20% of a flood barrier per charge. Since MEs have a fixed cost of 170 prod, that means your flood barriers will at most cost your empire 425 or 1700 gold, and can be built in as little as 3 turns from fresh engineers (when one guy uses his last charge, the next guy can walk on the tile and use his.)

A small flotilla of engineers Is very handy late game to secure strategic coastal locations from flooding, if you need to eg settle a key island for resources or an invasion.

 

[tedhebert]

The approach is to utilize high production cities to churn out Military engineers and send them where needed, since they can rush 20% of a flood barrier per charge. Since MEs have a fixed cost of 170 prod, that means your flood barriers will at most cost your empire 425 or 1700 gold, and can be built in as little as 3 turns from fresh engineers (when one guy uses his last charge, the next guy can walk on the tile and use his.)

A small flotilla of engineers Is very handy late game to secure strategic coastal locations from flooding, if you need to eg settle a key island for resources or an invasion.

Interesting. I'm a little ashamed to admit that I NEVER think about the ME 20% ability for anything ;-( I don't build a lot of encampment, and my ME are mainly used to build airstrips so I can let my bombers follow my invasion forces. It's not that I don't want to use the 20% for flood barriers, it's that I'd completely forgotten about it.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

I'm a little ashamed to admit that I NEVER think about the ME 20% ability for anything

Don't be, there's so many little nuances in the game that can easily be overlooked. Although, I have often wondered if the AI ever "thinks" about using MEs this way...

If Valletta is in the game, they make barriers absolutely trivial, but its not that common to find them

I love being Suz of Valletta in mid-to-late game. Makes getting newly conquered cities up and running a breeze. Oddly it's been in my last three games...so score!

Since MEs have a fixed cost of 170 prod

One of the changes I made to MEs was raising the cost and throwing on a Cost Progression. It's not much in the grand scheme, but at least I don't feel like I'm overly cheesing the game by spamming them to complete things.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The annoying thing with ME is you need to put the infrastructure you want to rush in top of the build queue which add tedious Micro for absolute no reason.

But yes military engineers are quite nice for rushing stuff and you can use them to prebuild production as you can build them long Before you get the infrastructure to spend them on.

Also I think both Fascism and communism get production bonuses towards military engineers.

 

[Basajaun]

The approach is to utilize high production cities to churn out Military engineers and send them where needed, since they can rush 20% of a flood barrier per charge. Since MEs have a fixed cost of 170 prod, that means your flood barriers will at most cost your empire 425 or 1700 gold, and can be built in as little as 3 turns from fresh engineers (when one guy uses his last charge, the next guy can walk on the tile and use his.)

A small flotilla of engineers Is very handy late game to secure strategic coastal locations from flooding, if you need to eg settle a key island for resources or an invasion.

Yes... count me among one of those that doesnt use military engineers for more than building railroads and a couple mountain tunnels
I always forget they have those uses, need to work on that.

I love being Suz of Valletta in mid-to-late game. Makes getting newly conquered cities up and running a breeze. Oddly it's been in my last three games...so score!

I love Valetta too for that same reason. Forward settle, buy walls up to renaissance and plant a military unit guarding the garrison, taunting the neighbor in this fashion:

Also wonderful if you have a good faith economy to boost coastal cities and culture progress. I buy monuments for ALL my cities as soon as I can if I have them.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

It's funny you should post that picture, 'cause I was just researching medieval siege warfare and one of the articles mentioned taunting the enemy as one of the tactics used by defenders. The article actually used that image from Monty Python.

 

[cain3456]

Shouldn't flood walls be transferable from city to city? I had a large city build flood walls for land that was in the 4th & 5th ring. Once they were completed, I tried to transfer them to a smaller city that had the land in their 3rd ring. The walls disappeared and I had the "option" to build them again.

 

[Sostratus]

Shouldn't flood walls be transferable from city to city? I had a large city build flood walls for land that was in the 4th & 5th ring. Once they were completed, I tried to transfer them to a smaller city that had the land in their 3rd ring. The walls disappeared and I had the "option" to build them again.

Flood barriers are implemented as an all or nothing protection attached to a city. They are not attached to tiles. There really isn’t conceptual space in the current way tiles exist to have “flood barriers” be attached to tiles, but not a feature, improvement, or district.

The flood barrier is just a building that if a city has one, coastal lowlands can be protected.