Flood plains and deserts

[Grimus]

Okay, I know there are plenty of peculiar things in Civ... it's just a game afterall, but here's another one to add to the list.

Does anybody else find it peculiar how flood plains are usually located near deserts? It's like two extremes always side by side. Why are flood plains classified as Flood plains/Desert anyway? Why weren't they programmed to be an independent tile usually located near rivers? Or at least Flood plains/Grassland instead.

The way it is now, is that you have mainly desert, plains, and grasslands (including mountains, tundra, and ice of course) which spawn about the map. Then rivers get thrown into the mix... if a desert happens to be next to a river there's a high "chance" it will convert into a flood plain. Why is this so? Why not have floodplains spawn off of grassland instead or plains? That way you wouldn't have a great desert next to floodplains all the time.

Was this way meant for flood plains to balance the lack of food from deserts when building cities near them?

Deserts should probably be located near mountains more often than anything else or plains I suppose.

Also, forgive my lack of knowledge, but in ancient times, were there actually deserts around? Not many I think. Deserts are a product of mankind's deforestation and lack of knowledge in preserving them. They totally eroded the land building up their great cities.

It would be cool if deserts were scarce at the beginning of the game and slowly start forming as the game progresses due to Civ's chopping down every damn forest in sight as well as from pollution, industrialization, and nukes of course.

Your thoughts?

Also, don't get me wrong... I'm not complaining of desert being in the game. I DON'T want perfect city conditions everywhere. I like the challenge of placing cities and having some struggle in harsh lands if they have to. If I wanted the best tiles, I'd play on those stupid maps full of grasslands and forests. I also understand that during a great deal of the game, cities are only working half the tiles anyway... some don't even make it to size 20, so who cares if you have "blemishes" upon your perfect terrain.

 

[Enigma256]

look at Egypt (the "classic" Egypt), where the Nile flooded their fields at a regular basis)

i think this is the idea behind flood plains in Civ, because that's what made Egypt the early civilization and power that it was.

 

[Enigma256]

double post, sorry

 

[Figaro]

Flood Plains are an overlay that add +3 food. On Deserts, that gives you 3 Food which is good but not unbalancing - use the Worldbuilder to put Food Plains on Grassland squares and you'll notice you get 5 food per (unimproved) square. As Enigma points out, they're in the game to represent the thin strips of highly fertile land near rivers in areas otherwise very infertile, to represent civs like Egypt's successful histories.

Also, forgive my lack of knowledge, but in ancient times, were there actually deserts around? Not many I think. Deserts are a product of mankind's deforestation and lack of knowledge in preserving them. They totally eroded the land building up their great cities.

It would be cool if deserts were scarce at the beginning of the game and slowly start forming as the game progresses due to Civ's chopping down every damn forest in sight as well as from pollution, industrialization, and nukes of course.

No, there have pretty much always been deserts around - the Sahara for example has been there since the end of the Ice Age. If you want evidence, look at all the species that have evolved to survive in deserts - it takes millions of years for a species to evolve. It is true that deforestation and such does caus desertification, but that is represented in the game by the global warming that happens towards the end. And nukes don't really cause desertification (this is a scientific inaccuracy that's been around for ages in Civ games).

 

[Flouzemaker]

The game is designed that way solely for game balance.
If on deserts, the flood plains aren't too overpowered.

There was a map generator (I forget which one) that could create flood plains on plains and grasslands. As you can imagine, a farmed grassland flood plain leads to preposterous amounts of food!

Sometimes, you have to make things just a tad bit less realistic in the name of game balance.

 

[MrTomothy]

It would be cool if deserts were scarce at the beginning of the game and slowly start forming as the game progresses due to Civ's chopping down every damn forest in sight as well as from pollution, industrialization, and nukes of course.

Global warming.

Seriously, on your next game, WB yourself some ICBMs, and nuke the crap out of somebody, til the point where you get the "Earth might crack like an egg" warning. Deserts will start appearing out of everywhere.

 

[Enigma256]

til the point where you get the "Earth might crack like an egg" warning.

that just happens with the "Next War" Mod.

 

[DigitalBoy]

I think having deserts frequent areas next to floodplains is an attempt to balance the huge advantage floodplains give you.

 

[LegionSteve]

There was a map generator (I forget which one) that could create flood plains on plains and grasslands. As you can imagine, a farmed grassland flood plain leads to preposterous amounts of food!

Yeah I've played that one too. Was it SmartMap? A plains hill, next to a river, with flood plains on it is very nice to have...

 

[Figaro]

Especially if they also have a resource on the square. It's possible to produce ~10 food from a single square.

 

[Stylesrj]

What I found out is that Floodplains are affected by Global Warming. The Flood plains turn into deserts, so a city next to a flood plain is not immune to Global Warming. The city will starve to death even worse, because it's next to a freaking desert with a river!

There was a Genetic Age mod a while back, it had an awesome thing with terraforming. I could turn those deserts back into grassland, or turn grassland by rivers into desert, so they become floodplains

 

[Hero]

Anybody know why there are sometimes Freshwater Desert tiles next to rivers? Why aren't they Floodplains? I hate when I see what looks like a great city location and realize later that those aren't Floodplains.

 

[Silver]

Also, I think it would be interesting to point out that while yes, there have always been deserts, our current planetary desertification (approximately 30% of land area) is significantly more that it has been, even compared to say, 4,000 years ago.

Archaeological evidence points to a thriving (well, perhaps not thriving, but at least existent) culture of mainly livestock razing in what is now the Sahara Desert. It's thought that about 6-8,000 years ago it was not the endless tracts of sand dunes that it is now, but more very dry scrubland akin to the deserts of say, Arizona.

Interestingly enough, it's also thought that the previously mentioned grazing is what created the expanse of dunes that we are so familiar with today. All the soil degradation and removal of plantlife supporting the already minimal topsoil served to completely destroy the scrubland.

In fact, It is thought in some circles that much of the middle east went through a similar situation, turning what is very rightly known as the "cradle of civilization" into the vast desert that we know today.

Just some food for thought, as many people seem to take it as read that the planet's large natural features (deserts, forests, inland seas, etc..) have always been like they are now. Turns out man has have a very dramatic affect on the planet, even before the industrial age.

Also, fun trivia question: What's the largest desert on earth?

Answer: Antarctica. The definition of desert is based on precipitation, and Antarctica receives almost none. So despite being covered is water, it is a massive desert. Neat, no?

 

[MrTomothy]

that just happens with the "Next War" Mod.

Oh, sorry, I wasn't keeping track. But still, use nuclear power, get global warming.

 

[Grimus]

Also, I think it would be interesting to point out that while yes, there have always been deserts, our current planetary desertification (approximately 30% of land area) is significantly more that it has been, even compared to say, 4,000 years ago.

Archaeological evidence points to a thriving (well, perhaps not thriving, but at least existent) culture of mainly livestock razing in what is now the Sahara Desert. It's thought that about 6-8,000 years ago it was not the endless tracts of sand dunes that it is now, but more very dry scrubland akin to the deserts of say, Arizona.

Interestingly enough, it's also thought that the previously mentioned grazing is what created the expanse of dunes that we are so familiar with today. All the soil degradation and removal of plantlife supporting the already minimal topsoil served to completely destroy the scrubland.

In fact, It is thought in some circles that much of the middle east went through a similar situation, turning what is very rightly known as the "cradle of civilization" into the vast desert that we know today.

Just some food for thought, as many people seem to take it as read that the planet's large natural features (deserts, forests, inland seas, etc..) have always been like they are now. Turns out man has have a very dramatic affect on the planet, even before the industrial age.

Also, fun trivia question: What's the largest desert on earth?

Answer: Antarctica. The definition of desert is based on precipitation, and Antarctica receives almost none. So despite being covered is water, it is a massive desert. Neat, no?

Exactly Silver, that's what I believed... not sure where I've read about it, perhaps in The Third Chimpanzee.

Also, nice fun fact, I'll have to remember that one!

 

[Bahacles44]

Yes, but before the wet period from 6-8000 years ago, the Sahara Desert was a dry wasteland of sand dunes and stony flats. The thing is that as the ice caps melted from the increase in solar radiation the weather patterns changed bringing monsoonal rain into North Africa, making it very wet for about two thousand years. Then, as the sun continued to melt the ice caps, the weather patterns continued to shift northward and the Sahara dried out again to its current state.

Lately, the process of drying out has continued episodically, driven by complex patterns of interaction between fluctuating solar radiation levels, the ever changing orbital variations of our planet, and variable weather and oceanic patterns. That the drying out of the Sahara is not caused by the hand of man is strongly suggested by the reversal of the drying trend along the southern margin of the Sahara, as I have recently read something about.

Hmmmm.

 

[anonymous4402]

Anybody know why there are sometimes Freshwater Desert tiles next to rivers? Why aren't they Floodplains? I hate when I see what looks like a great city location and realize later that those aren't Floodplains.

I'd like to know this too.

 

[MrCynical]

Anybody know why there are sometimes Freshwater Desert tiles next to rivers? Why aren't they Floodplains? I hate when I see what looks like a great city location and realize later that those aren't Floodplains.

This is due to a quirk of the map generator. It's set up to provide good starting locations for all civs, and as a result usually gives freshwater, either a lake or river, at the starting tile for each civ. This obviously means that it often needs to create additional rivers or lakes. If a river is generated for this purpose, and it runs through desert tiles, the map generator doesn't turn them into floodplain as it normally would.

So basically you'll occasionally see them somewhere along a river that runs past a capital. They aren't completely useless as they still can have watermills.

 

[CivDude86]

I'm told is due to rivers created for starting spots (so your capital has access to fresh water) are laid after generation and there is no code to put flood plains down for those rivers. Its probably an oversight that never got fixed (like the market grocer graphic mixup).

 

[Willem]

look at Egypt (the "classic" Egypt), where the Nile flooded their fields at a regular basis)

i think this is the idea behind flood plains in Civ, because that's what made Egypt the early civilization and power that it was.

Also the Tigris-Euphrates river where civilization began in the Middle East. I agree it's not very realistic, the Mississippi River had quite a flood plain too, but that's the rationale behind it.