FOR UNITMANIA FANS: Conquests/Complete update underway!

[Duneflower]

That's right, folks: For those who haven't seen me on Apolyton or EvoGames (which has seemed quite dead for a while now), I'm currently in the process of updating Kestrel's awesome-looking UnitMania Mod for Conquests. Of course, I'm putting my own stamp on it - rebalancing, tweaking, and in some cases outright changing some of the new units (especially some of the UUs); making the names of various cultures, leaders, titles, and cities more authentic; and reordering the cities into something more resembling historical order - so it might need a new name, especially since there's more than just new units and I think "UnitMania" is a dumb name anyway; I've also gotten in touch with Wernazuma, author of Civ3 Extrapack, and will almost certainly be borrowing some of his ideas.

I would post an exhaustive list of the new stuff I've done so far, but I'm really tired right now, so I'll just tease y'all with a list of the new UUs.

Edit: This is now the updated, full list of UUs in the mod - new units in bold, old but modified units in italics. If anyone has further suggestions or refinements to the list, by all means. Last updated 6 Aug 2007.

• America - Minuteman (Nationalism, probably?); Navy SEAL (credit to Civ4, probably up at Synthetic Fibres or thereabouts)
• Arabia - Ansar; Saracen (Monotheism? Military Tradition? Chivalry and bump Ansar up to MT?)
• Azteca - Jaguar (now replaces Swordsman, as in Civ4); Eagle (tentative, but almost certain now)
• Babylonia - Bowman (still need second)
• Byzantium - Dromon; Cataphract (credit BtS)
• Celts - Gaestati (Gallic Warrior renamed); Highlander (replaces Maceman or possibly Knight - in the latter case, would be less effective but horseless and probably cheaper)
• China - Tang Cavalry (Rider renamed, at least for now); Chu-ko-nu (probably Archer replacement at Mathematics)
• Egypt - War Chariot; Mamluk Cavalry (open to suggestions for placement)
• England - Man-o-War; Redcoat (probably replacing Musketman)
• France - Musketeer (moved up to Metallurgy along with Musketman); Chevalier (Chivalry, duh)
• Germany - Panzer; Triplane (replaces new early fighter, Biplane)
• Greece - Hoplite (now replaces Swordsman); Trireme
• Hittites - Three-man Chariot; Trojan Archer (very tentative)
• India - War Elephant[/i] (will now require ivory); Fast Worker (Civ4 again)
  [*]Japan - Samurai; Sohei (Theology, probably)
  [*]Korea - Hwach'a; Hwarang (not sure where to put it yet)
  [*]KwaZulu - Impi; Sarwe (Swordsman replacement)
  [*]Macedonia (new civ!) - Phalangite (takes Hoplite's old position); Companions (not sure where to put it yet)
  [*]Maya - Atl-atler; Holkan (BtS again)
  [*]Mongolia - Keshik; Turkic Auxiliary (replaces Maceman)
  [*]Netherlands - Swiss Guard; East-Indiaman (BtS yet again)
  [*]Ottomans - S'pahi; Jannisary (replaces Musketman)
  [*]Persis - Immortal (now replaces Royal Elite) (maybe have both infantry and cavalry/chariot versions, like in Civ4?)
  [*]Portugal - Carrack (still need second)
  [*]Qart Haddesh (Carthage) - Libyan Spearman (Numidian Mercenary renamed); Numidian Cavalry (spec'd to match Warlords, more-or-less)
  [*]Rome - Legionary (moved up to Monarchy, where it replaces the new Royal Elite); Veles
  [*]Russia - Cossack; T-34 (mainly because I felt like squeezing another tank in there)
  [*]Scandinavia - Berserkir (now replaces Maceman); Drakkar (most likely late-ancient)
  [*]Six Nations (Iroquois) - Mounted Warriors; War Party (replaces...Archers? Axemen? Royal Elites?)
  [*]Spain - Conquistador; Tercio (probably replaces Arquebusier)
  [*]Sumeria - Enkidu Warrior (moved up to Mysticism and respec'd); Battlewagon (horseless and probably slow chariot)
  [*]Tahuantinsuyu (Inca) - Chasqui (like Scout, no attack but can defend; possibly higher D, and Scout now upgrades to it); Quechua (Civ4 yet again)
  [*]Knights Templar now produces Templar units, basically super-Knights; Crusaders are now produced by the Crusade small wonder - one or the other will probably end up at Theology
  

A comment on the Enkidu Warrior: It was previously objected that Enkidu was a figure of legend; this it true, but the idea behind the unit was a group of warriors who emulate his lifestyle and such, not so much to represent him himself.

I'm always up for suggestions, and I'll need some other help besides, particularly with graphics for the new units - I really, really suck at computerized art. If anyone has the old UnitMania, please send it to me since I was never able to get a full copy!

 

[Tathlum]

Celts - Woad Raider (tentative)

Why use a made-up unit when you have thousands of years of Celtic history? If you want use something like that, at least call it a Gaestati, a real unit.

Rome - Comitatensis (also, Legionary moved up to Monarchy, where it replaces the new Royal Guard)

Would a velite or cataphracht not be more Iconic?

France - Char-B1 (tentative - these tanks were even better than Germany's at the beginning of WW2)

A UU from a period when they were kicked around? How about a Chevalier (French Knights had an awesome reputation) or a Napolionic Fusilier, both units from times when the French had probably the best armed forces in the world.

England - Dreadnought (yep, two ships)

Why not Huscarls or Redcoats. Englands empire owed as much to well disciplined infantry as a good navy.

Germany - Triplane (replaces new early fighter, Biplane)

2 unique units a similar time. Why not Germanic hordes to beat up some late romans.

Carthage

African elephant, libyan hoplites, numidian cavalry, quinreme?

Persis (no, that's not a typo; I looked it up)

When you have Carthage instead of Qart Haddesh, Rome instead of Roma etc, then Persia is fine. Iran may be a good name since you could cover all those local Aryan cultures (Persians, Medes, Scythians, Dahae maybe?)

Cataphrachts and Scythian mercenaries might be good. (cavalry are real important in Iranian history).

the Hittites

A chariot is good since they used them against Egypt at Kadesh. Trojan archers if you feel a bit whimsical.

Russia

Druzhina(medieval), T-34(WW2).

America - Navy SEAL (credit to Civ4)

Stealth bomber (since it is a unique unit) instead of F-15.
Minutemen to use against the british, or cavalry against American Indians?

Sumeria

Gutian slingers and Akkadian spearmen? (since summerian battle cart would be hard to fit into the short civ period for chariots).

 

[Takhisis]

Carthage

You can put Lybian Infantry, Spanish, Gaulish and Numidian Mercenaries, Armored Elephants (different from the standard Indian/Persian/Macedonian Elephants, perhaps an upgrade), some special Quinqueremes as naval UU...

the Maya

Why not check out the Ancient Maya Scenario?

 

[Duneflower]

Celts: Why use a made-up unit when you have thousands of years of Celtic history? If you want use something like that, at least call it a Gaestati, a real unit.

Well, I personally don't know of anything else that's really distinctly Celtic. If you do, by all means bounce it off me.

Rome: Would a velite or cataphracht not be more Iconic?

Velites? Hmmmmm. Quite possibly, on both counts...

France: A UU from a period when they were kicked around? How about a Chevalier (French Knights had an awesome reputation) or a Napolionic Fusilier, both units from times when the French had probably the best armed forces in the world.

They may have been kicked around, but it certainly wasn't the fault of this dandy bit of equipment. Pretty much nothing topped them until the Tiger came around. Your ideas certainly sound decent, though...

England: Why not Huscarls or Redcoats. Englands empire owed as much to well disciplined infantry as a good navy.

I don't know about "as much", but I won't deny that it was important. However, I submit that HMS Dreadnought was an icon of her day, the first-ever superbattleship and a pronounced success in the Great War.

Germany: 2 unique units a similar time. Why not Germanic hordes to beat up some late romans.

Having UUs at diverse times is actually an advantage, as it allows two distinct chances at a military golden-age; and while having two at once also can be, I'd say it isn't as much of one in a long-term sense. And I doubt anyone will disagree when I say that Germany really doesn't need many more advantages.

Carthage: African elephant, libyan hoplites, numidian cavalry, quinreme?

Anyone with access to elephants will be able to build elephant units. They already have Libyan spears. Numidian horse and quinquiremes are both good ideas.

Persis: When you have Carthage instead of Qart Haddesh, Rome instead of Roma etc, then Persia is fine. Iran may be a good name since you could cover all those local Aryan cultures (Persians, Medes, Scythians, Dahae maybe?)

Cataphrachts and Scythian mercenaries might be good. (cavalry are real important in Iranian history).

Qart Haddesh, is it? I'll have to remember that. And I have changed the name of the city to Roma; is that appropriate to the culture as well?

Also, I forgot to mention that I moved Immortals up with Legionaries.

Hittites: A chariot is good since they used them against Egypt at Kadesh. Trojan archers if you feel a bit whimsical.

They already have Three-man Chariots. Trojan archers? Were they that good?

Russia: Druzhina(medieval), T-34(WW2).

Bwahaha, T-34! I was gonna suggest that myself, but I didn't think anyone would get behind it. Tell me about druzhina?

America: Stealth bomber (since it is a unique unit) instead of F-15.
Minutemen to use against the british, or cavalry against American Indians?

Stealth-bomber is not a UU. I actually have considered using Minutemen, but I've had the opinion strongly expressed to me that they would unbalance the culture.

Sumeria: Gutian slingers and Akkadian spearmen? (since summerian battle cart would be hard to fit into the short civ period for chariots).

Hmmm. I'll need more information on all of the above. They already have Enkidu warriors, of course.

Maya: Why not check out the Ancient Maya Scenario?

I might do that. For now, I'm strongly considering doing a conjectural unit for them - for instance, if they had survived to the middle-ages, might they have just kept tinkering with atlatls instead of adopting longbows?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Egypt: If you want another Ancient Age unit, I'd suggest the "Medjay." The Medjay were composed of skilled Nubian warriors that served to police the Egyptian kingdom as well as front-line soldiers in times of war. If you want a Middle Age unit, then the "Mamluk Cavalry" would work. The Mamluks were originally slaves trained to be soldiers and eventually became an extremely powerful military caste (somewhat similar to the Turkish Jannissaries in this respect). They were pretty good warriors; they even drove the mighty Mongols back.

China: I'd get rid of Firaxis's "Rider" UU since that was when they tried to simply lump Chinese and Mongols together . An alternative UU could be the "Tang Cavalry" (Dom Pedro made one a while ago); the Tang Dynasty was a time when the Chinese Empire was very majorly militaristic and expansionistic. Other ideas could be the "Zhuge-nu" (a.k.a. "Chu-ko-nu") or the "Fire Lancer" (the world's first hand-held anti-personnel rocket launcher).

Mongols: Mongols were willing to incorporate the talents of other cultures into their armies (which was one of the reasons why they were so effective in conquering other empires) so one idea could be a "Turkic Auxiliary" unit that could serve as a replacement for Medieval Infantry; highly skilled Muslim generals and Turkic warriors formed a major part of the Mongol empire's armies and garrisons.

Korea: "Hwarang" or "Kobukson" or maybe ditch the "Hwach'a" and put in both. "Hwarang" were the "Flower Knights" of the Kingdom of Shilla (one of the Korean Three Kingdoms before unified Shilla took over the peninsula). Don't let their frilly name fool you; they were some pretty serious military elites. ShiroKobbure made a great "Hwarang Archer" unit a while back. The "Kobukson" is the famed "Turtle Ship," the first completely "ironclad" cannon-bearing warship ever constructed. They were medium-sized ships, but were very mobile and armed to the tooth...literally (the dragon's head on the ship was equipped with flame throwers and rockets in its mouth).

 

[Duneflower]

Egypt: If you want another Ancient Age unit, I'd suggest the "Medjay." The Medjay were composed of skilled Nubian warriors that served to police the Egyptian kingdom as well as front-line soldiers in times of war. If you want a Middle Age unit, then the "Mamluk Cavalry" would work. The Mamluks were originally slaves trained to be soldiers and eventually became an extremely powerful military caste (somewhat similar to the Turkish Jannissaries in this respect). They were pretty good warriors; they even drove the mighty Mongols back.

Mamluks...excellent idea. I think I'll go there. Also, people, feel free to post recommended stats for units - and note that this mod scales all combat factors up by 10! (that is, a standard Warrior - or Axeman, as I'm renaming them - is 10/10/1.

China: I'd get rid of Firaxis's "Rider" UU since that was when they tried to simply lump Chinese and Mongols together . An alternative UU could be the "Tang Cavalry" (Dom Pedro made one a while ago); the Tang Dynasty was a time when the Chinese Empire was very majorly militaristic and expansionistic. Other ideas could be the "Zhuge-nu" (a.k.a. "Chu-ko-nu") or the "Fire Lancer" (the world's first hand-held anti-personnel rocket launcher).

D'oh, I'd already decided to include Chu-ko-nu! I hate when I forget something like that...but then again, it was late. And the Tang Cavalry sounds like a decent idea.

Mongols: Mongols were willing to incorporate the talents of other cultures into their armies (which was one of the reasons why they were so effective in conquering other empires) so one idea could be a "Turkic Auxiliary" unit that could serve as a replacement for Medieval Infantry; highly skilled Muslim generals and Turkic warriors formed a major part of the Mongol empire's armies and garrisons.

Sounds like a plan. Probably make them no or not much better than MI, but cheaper, like the way Jaguars or Samurai don't require iron.

Korea: "Hwarang" or "Kobukson" or maybe ditch the "Hwach'a" and put in both. "Hwarang" were the "Flower Knights" of the Kingdom of Shilla (one of the Korean Three Kingdoms before unified Shilla took over the peninsula). Don't let their frilly name fool you; they were some pretty serious military elites. ShiroKobbure made a great "Hwarang Archer" unit a while back. The "Kobukson" is the famed "Turtle Ship," the first completely "ironclad" cannon-bearing warship ever constructed. They were medium-sized ships, but were very mobile and armed to the tooth...literally (the dragon's head on the ship was equipped with flame throwers and rockets in its mouth).

I think I'll leave that one up for a vote...I like Hwach'a, but both of those sound like good ideas...one sec. Haha, I wonder if that's where Namco got the name Hwoarang from...he is Korean, after all...

Alright, people, let's have a few votes. Which UUs do you think I should go with for the...

Americans? (pick two)

1. F-15
2. Minutemen
3. Navy SEAL

French?

1. Char-B1 bis
2. Chevalier
3. Fusilier

English?

1. Dreadnought
2. Redcoat

Carthaginians (or whatever the authentic name is)?

1. Numidian Horseman
2. Quinquereme

Koreans? (pick two)

1. Hwach'a
2. Hwarang
3. Kobukson

Maya? (pick two)

1. Ajaw
2. Atl-atler
3. Sajal
4. Yajaw K'ak'

 

[LMR]

Stealth bomber (since it is a unique unit) instead of F-15.

Stealth-bomber is not a UU.

What i think tathlum means is the stealth bomber (in real life) is a UU, coz only the Americans have them, and that the American UU in the game should be changed from the F-15 to the Stealth Bomber

 

[Duneflower]

What i think tathlum means is the stealth bomber (in real life) is a UU, coz only the Americans have them, and that the American UU in the game should be changed from the F-15 to the Stealth Bomber

Hmmm...you suggest, then, changing the universal unit to some sort of standard jet-fueled bomber?

 

[LMR]

I have no idea. i was just explaining what i thought Tathlum was saying

 

[Goldflash]

Unitmania? Never heard of it. Though this sounds like a ripoff of my mod. My first mod. GATTM. And all thoes other mods that inrosuce a second UU.

 

[Takhisis]

Yeah, you should pay Goldflash 10% of all the winnings and a 2.5% to me for settling the matter.
Korea should have Hwarangs as some sort of defensive UU´s, also Hwach´a artillery, and Kobukson and panokson warships...

 

[Duneflower]

Unitmania? Never heard of it. Though this sounds like a ripoff of my mod. My first mod. GATTM. And all thoes other mods that inrosuce a second UU.

Heh, not likely; the tech-tree here so far isn't going to be modified in the slightest.

 

[WildWeazel]

America- Minutemen
French- Chevalier
England- Redcoat
Carthage- Numidian Cavalry
Korea- Turtle Ship

Yes, the B-2 is only built by the US, but most aircraft are only used by a few countries. And the idea of a stealth bomber isn't completely unique- other countries are developing them too. Since the B-2 is "the" stealth bomber, it was chosen to fill the spot.

FYI, giving a civ an artillery or air unit as a UU is a ripoff. They will never get a GA out of it.

 

[Duneflower]

I believe I've seen an artillery bombardment start a GA.

Incidentally: Weasel, that sig is ... well, priceless. %)

 

[Quinzy]

only lethal bombard, and a kill with an artillery is cery very rare!

 

[Red Door]

Depends on the bombard strength.

 

[Duneflower]

Hmm, you're right, Quinzy - we'd have to give them stupidly-high BP in order for them to reliably GA. Although, if you're running Hwach'a around in stacks of a half-dozen along with an assault force, chances are pretty good...

EDIT: Damn, but I wish this place had a poll function...

 

[WildWeazel]

It may be possible for a human player to start a GA, but the AI won't because it never builds artillery, and obviously it couldn't capture its own UU from the human player. IIRC air-to-air kills don't count, so again only lethal bombardment would work. Plus, a UU that late in the [epic] game isn't worth much, especially when it's not a regular combat unit.
In short, it's generally better to give each civ a normal land unit as a UU.

btw, you can have polls, but only when you start a new thread.

 

[Quinzy]

make a small wonder only available to that civ that spawns its artillery UU maybe?

 

[Tathlum]

What i think tathlum means is the stealth bomber (in real life) is a UU, coz only the Americans have them, and that the American UU in the game should be changed from the F-15 to the Stealth Bomber

Yup.

Hmmm...you suggest, then, changing the universal unit to some sort of standard jet-fueled bomber?

Yup.

FYI, giving a civ an artillery or air unit as a UU is a ripoff. They will never get a GA out of it.

Wouldnt the GA have been kicked off by the minuteman anyway? The industrial GA would have been usefull. A second UU cant set off a second GA (right? or am I mistaken).

Yes, the B-2 is only built by the US, but most aircraft are only used by a few countries. And the idea of a stealth bomber isn't completely unique- other countries are developing them too. Since the B-2 is "the" stealth bomber, it was chosen to fill the spot.

True but at the moment it is a UU (in real life). Another may not even be built. Even if it is, Roman Legions wern't unique. The Galatians and Seleucids both developed legions copied off Romes. Doesn't stop the legion being a good UU for Rome.
Just a suggestion anyway.

Quote:
Sumeria: Gutian slingers and Akkadian spearmen? (since summerian battle cart would be hard to fit into the short civ period for chariots).

Hmmm. I'll need more information on all of the above. They already have Enkidu warriors, of course.

Enkidu warrior is based off a ledgendary figure. An Akkadian spearman would be a real-life equivalent, basically a spearman with an animal skin cloak as armour. A Gutian slinger is a mountain dwelling auxiliary/mercenary thet faught for the Sumerians. Sumerian history is basically the first few turns of a civ game, these choices give the Sumerians some real units without needing resources(like a battle-cart would). Unless you want to give them a resource free chariot since they used Onagers not real Horses. But battle-carts sucked, there was just no other chariots to compare to. Gutians and Akkadians could at least put up a fight against another civs units.

Well, I personally don't know of anything else that's really distinctly Celtic. If you do, by all means bounce it off me.

Kerns,
Bonnachts,
Gallowglachts,
Gailianna,
Fianna,
Thanes,
Niadh Naisc,
Schiltrons,
Highlanders,
Welsh Longbowmen,
Druids,
Pyrdani Fanatics,
Gaestati,
Gallic Noble Cavalry,
Solduri,
Galatian Legions,
Wild Geese.

Most iconic would be some kind of naked fanatics (Gaestati/Gailianna/Solduri/Pretani fanatics) plus a choice of a chariot, kerns, highlanders, schiltrons or welsh longbowmen.

Bwahaha, T-34! I was gonna suggest that myself, but I didn't think anyone would get behind it. Tell me about druzhina?

Druzhina is a medieval knight. Maybe a fast one because of all the land they covered getting to battles all over Russia as they founded the principalities.

As for your votes;
America; minuteman
France; Chevalier
English; redcoat
Carthage; quincreme (punic empire was made and sustained by the navy)
Koreans; Hwarang and Kobukson (I think gunpowder suits china better than Korea)