Forced Government

[Ace]

Originally posted by Ren


You make Communism sound like Fundy. Oldies around this forum will tell you that when I first turned up I really was a Communism Nazi. Though my ideas have been opened and I've discovered the advantages of using Democracy, Communism is still an absolutely viable Government for mid and late gameplay.

Sure you don't get the boosted trade, but personally I think that the greatest advantage of Democracy is not this, but the celebration-speeded growth. Commie still pulls no/very little corruption, very little unhappiness (don't confuse unhappy-content and content-happy here), research is reasonable, and cheaper units (don't forget all spies are veterans ). I've successfully managed large empires under Commie, even if I didn't reap the benefits of a Power Democracy, it still worked. Democracy charges a shield for every unit; this would be crippling for early game growth. Communism is underestimated here at CFC and I'm not quite sure why. Of course Democracy is wonderful, it IS better than Communism, but Communism is far from an 'overrun them while the overunning's good, don't expect to get the advanced techs or try for AC' Gov.

Thank you for making my point.

 

[Ren]

Your point? Wasn't your point that Democracy would be more feesable for a whole game than Communism? That isn't the intended message in my post.

 

[Ace]

Originally posted by Ren
Your point? Wasn't your point that Democracy would be more feesable for a whole game than Communism? That isn't the intended message in my post.

Yes, that was my point, and if you reread your last post, thats exactly what you said!! It might not have been your intended message, but you certainly extolled the advantages of demo over commie in regards to the whole game.

I, too, used to use commie to build large empires before I read Starlifter's posts on power democracy. In fact, I used to finish games in monarchy when I first switched over to civ2 from civ1, last millenium. Sure, Commie is a viable gov for end game, but demo is many times better in that phase of the game. And there is no doubt that commie is better in the early game, but, overall, if I have to play the whole game with one form of gov, I prefer democracy. Granted the first part of the game is a bear, but its worth the struggle to reap the benefits later.

 

[Marlos]

You guys all make good points, and I agree that forcing a modern government on an early civilization makes the game difficult. Fundy from square one has its own challenges. Let's try democracy! I'm game for a little self-inflicted punishment!

I think that the lack of corruption and the corresponding trade bonuses will leave the AI under monarchy and despotism in the dust! Yes, disorder will be an issue, but imagine the race to HG and Mike's!

FYI, I voted for Communism...

 

[Terrapin]

I voted for democracy, but I am not so sure. The early game lack of martial law in the early game on Diety just seems like a crushing disadvantage, especially when combined with the "in the field" unit penalty. That said the Rep/Dem (bi-partisn?) celebration day population growth will always be the ultimate abuse in civII. Pushing your cities to size 8, 12 or even bigger in the four digit BCs just leaves every other government in the dust. Mr. fundy just sent 50 archers toward me!! I guess my fortress city (best shield production + shakes so the units it supports can travel) better get busy. Mr Fundy better hope he transported the arrow boys from the other side of the map, or he's not long for this world! Actually, he better find a way to hide on another map! Actually, why wait for the archers to show up?

I just do not know if I could grow the dem fast enough to achieve power democracy status. But once you start celebrating your cities, look out!

 

[thebignastyone]

Monarchy equals total power. The only way to go.

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Originally posted by thebignastyone
Monarchy equals total power. The only way to go.

Have you even read the past posts on this topic?

 

[starlifter]

Good thread Old n Slow. You always have good ideas!

About the vote: Big surprise... I just voted for Democracy, LOL.

So was this sort of game implemented? I know we did a Fundy-only game about GOTM 18 or so, but if a Commie or Demo only game was done, can someone recall it?

Maybe the whole series of governments could be done, in sort of a coordinate GOTM story-arc... locking each government type for the human progressively (e.g., Monarchy, Republic, Communism, Fundamentalism, Democracy).

 

[Magic_gorter]

I like democracy the most. I play most of the times early landing and with democracy you can set the science to 100%. This can result in 2 or 3 discoveries every turn. No other government can do the same. The only problem with democracy is the hapiness, but with the right wonders this is easy to deal with

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I voted for Communism, a government I almost never use in the normal course of a game.

The question is :"If you were forced to play a game with one and only one government (forced at the outset) what would it be?"

At different stages of the game, some governments are better than others. This changes with passage of game time. But if I were to be stuck with just one government I do not want one that is good for some stages and terrible for others. I think Communism is the one that offers the best well rounded one for all situations.

I am surprised that some people picked Monarchy. Its only advantage to Communism is that settlers eat one instead of two food per turn. That is little in comparison with having no corruption and each unit in a city making 2 rather than 1 citizen happy. (Not to mention spies being vet to begin with.)

If there were no huts in the game, I would have voted for democracy.

 

[rysingsun]

democracy

the only truly annoying thing would be the trireme problem. settler support would be the other issue. but these issues are manageable.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

democracy

the only truly annoying thing would be the trireme problem. settler support would be the other issue. but these issues are manageable.

The first and foremost problem is that you cannot send a warrior out for exploration and hut hunting. The best you can do is to zoom for writing and then send a diplomat. Next, you will have the trireme problem.

These problems are not easily manageable. At the outset of the game your cities are small, you have no infrastructure, and no wonders to help you manage.

 

[rysingsun]

well i'm not saying that such a game is the ideal situation or anything. but i would rather manage the early game unhappiness problem of democracy than face the alternatives, such as:

1) republic the whole game - 50 percent corruption empire wide for the entire game or ...

2) anything else - no super city growth. no easy way to recover the population from the production of a settler. ssc generates much less income. high corruption empire wide again.

so how will i play my democracy? probably something like this:

build up about 6 cities ics style. this will get rid of most of the settler support issues. build caravans. build HG and Collosus. It can't be too bad after that can it?

I don't know about exploration. maybe i'll go for writing first and get diplomats or something.

 

[Ace]

For the entire game, I vote for Communism. Democracy is a better form of gov for most of the game, but the vital startup part is very difficult in democracy. I tried it some years back using a forced gov of demo to see how it went. I gave up on it after several restarts. The unhappiness and the support drain on resources was just a killer. Once you get Mike's and JSB and your cities are large enough to spare some food and shields to support settlers, democracy works fine, but getting to that point is tough!

It can be done, by stressing happiness improvements and lots of luxuries, but it really slows down the early game.

 

[Millman]

It says in the game itself democracy was meant for large, advanced civilizations so in the beginning you are most likely going to be something else as a lot of us have said.

I changed to Communism one time and I loved it. I can support so many units without a great deal of unhappiness with vet spies.

Going with democracy ealier and you have no benefits from the extra trade your roads were suppose to provide, but you can make the most of it. In the beginning and all throughout the game the 'beyond the third' rule seems very good.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

2) anything else - no super city growth. no easy way to recover the population from the production of a settler. ssc generates much less income. high corruption empire wide again.

The growth through celebration is the only thing you miss. Communism has no corruption, which is why I picked it instead of Republic. Your SSC does not have to generate less income either. If you keep it in celebration mode it produces as much income as democracy.

 

[starlifter]

In Civ 2, a Communism government does have corruption. And Communism has waste, contrary to published sources. But for the vast majority of players, it is not a factor.


Modern Government Waste
Ancient Government Waste
Trade Corruption


Relative Summary of Tests:

Democracy: Zero Corruption (0% max) & Zero Waste (0% max).
Fundamentalism: Zero (0% max) Corruption & Zero Waste (0% max).
Communism: Very Low Corruption (1.6% max) & Very Low Waste (2% max).
Republic: High Corruption (40% max)& Low Waste (10% max).
Monarchy: Very High Corruption (71% max) & Moderate Waste (17% max).
Despotism: Very High Corruption (79 % max) & High Waste (40% max).
Anarchy: Almost total (96% max) Corruption & Very High Waste (63% max).


Note: It seems that sometime in the last 4 years, many linked graphics were lost at CFC. All those graphics were in the CFC upload location that Thunderfall had assigned in the Summer of 2002. I see there is a new system now, and many of my old posts have no graphics, so apologies for that. But the text is OK. The tests, like almost all in my posts, are MGE 5.4.0f.

EDIT: Fixed the incorrect 'Ancient' and 'Trade' links.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Thank you starlifter. As I said, I rarely ever use Communism during a normal game since I do not think it is ever the optimal choice when it is available. I did some tests and saw no corruption. Obviously my cities were not large enough.

 

[starlifter]

Obviously my cities were not large enough.

Its just a function of number of resources. I believe it was the 64th trade icon (arrow) that was corrupt, and I think every 64th one after that. I wrote all that info straight onto the graphics I posted with an editor.... now I see there was need to put it into the post text, too.

Also, you can reduce waste by having the proper road to your capital. And the only "good" thing about waste, is that it is not used in the Resource Pollution caculation. Example: if you produce 44 shields post-industrial, and have a hydro/nuke plant + Mass Transit, and you have a waste of 3 shields, then you will have no pollution icons (44-3=41, which gives no RP in this case). But in a Democracy, you will have pollution icons & therefore chance of pollution skulls each turn. And before someone asks... no, support shields are not excluded from pollution consideration like waste shields are... you do pay the pollution penalty for support shields in all forms of government.

 

[tomsnowman123]

I would probably choose Communism, I don't think it's as restrcitive and I am more familiar with playing under it.