fortress/barricade question and suggestion needed.

[model359]

Quick question on fortresses and barracks:

I never have built fortresses because I did not see the real need. I have never seen an AI build them so I figured they were worthless. I had the extra works so I decided I was going to build them on my border between my next victim and myself.

1. The rules state that you get a 50% bonus for units in the fortress. I put a spear man on the fortress with a barricade, and there is no option to load. I am assuming that just fortifying them on the fortress/barricade space that it will take effect.

2. I also see that with a barricade that any unit walking by must stop and are only able to move one space per turn. Also that units in the fortress/barricade get a free shot at them. Is that with any unit, or must the unit have bombardment capabilities?

3. What I have been doing is building one fortress/barricade, then moving 3 spaces down and building another… leaving 2 open spaces between them, which I build a road between so that I have quick movement along the front line. By doing that and the no pass rules, that should pretty much slow down all access to my inter cities. This would give me time to move troops to the front line if needed.

Am I using these fortress/barricade in the right manner this way? Does anyone else use them or am I wasting precious worker time doing this.

Thanks!

 

[MarineCorps]

That spear man now has a defense of 4. (I think thats how it works) So you tell me if it is worthless. I have a Q of my own: Does the barricade add to the fortress bonus so that a unit has a 150% defense bonus or does the barricade have a 50% bonus that adds to the fortress to make it 100%?

 

[Chieftess]

Fortresses and barricades are great on chokepoints, especially if it's a mountain. Plop a stack of 10 defenders, (with archers and catapults), and have the AI attack you. They won't even stand a chance.

Say it's a spear.

mountain - 100% (defense of 4)
Fortress - 50% (defense of 5)
Fortified - 25% (defense of 5.5)
Behind a river - 25% (defense of 6 - Rifleman!)

 

[model359]

COOL,

I looked at one of the calc, is says if you have a fortress/barricade on a mountain, with a unit with 4 defense and 4 HP, you need an attack streinght of 12 to have a 65% chance of winning... WOW... that does seem right though...

Then is it good stratagy to lay them 3 squares apart with a road between them on the open field, not choke point?

By doing this I can see it would be extreamly tough just for them to pass by...

 

[yoshi74]

Well, those units are quite good in defence, but it won't be any good when the ai just passes them (as they usually do).
On small bottlenecks it may be good. For longer borders i dont recommend them. The free shot at bypassing enemys i good, but not really needed. If you have a lot of worker and don't know what to do with them, build some forts. Otherwise don't bother.

[edit] When being on a small island, fortifieng the whole coast makes you nearly unattackeble. At least the ai almost never use marines.

 

[model359]

Originally posted by yoshi74
Well, those units are quite good in defence, but it won't be any good when the ai just passes them (as they usually do).
On small bottlenecks it may be good. For longer borders i dont recommend them. The free shot at bypassing enemys i good, but not really needed. If you have a lot of worker and don't know what to do with them, build some forts. Otherwise don't bother.

[edit] When being on a small island, fortifieng the whole coast makes you nearly unattackeble. At least the ai almost never use marines.

What is a fort, you mean outpost? is there a fort as long with all the other stuff?

 

[yoshi74]

i meant barrikade

 

[Pook]

Last time I built a wall, I took the Maginot Line approach: two layers deep with barricades and railroads in every single tile, and cannons/artillery available on short notice. I goaded the AI into attacking me, then let his troops lap up on my barricades like water on a beach. Quite effective. I've never tried the spacing of barricades approach, sounds interesting.
Couple of points to consider:
1) Make sure there are no roads in the spaces next to your barricades on the "opponent's" side. Otherwise, the AI can load a bunch of (one MP) units against one barricade and punch through. With no roads, only fast units can do that.
2) Put some catapults/trebuchets/cannons in short reach of the barricades. You need these to weaken the AI units before they get to you.
What you want is for the AI's slow units to have a torturously long trek through "no man's land" while under bombardment before they can attack your fortified units.

 

[model359]

Originally posted by Pook
Last time I built a wall, I took the Maginot Line approach: two layers deep with barricades and railroads in every single tile, and cannons/artillery available on short notice. I goaded the AI into attacking me, then let his troops lap up on my barricades like water on a beach. Quite effective. I've never tried the spacing of barricades approach, sounds interesting.
Couple of points to consider:
1) Make sure there are no roads in the spaces next to your barricades on the "opponent's" side. Otherwise, the AI can load a bunch of (one MP) units against one barricade and punch through. With no roads, only fast units can do that.
2) Put some catapults/trebuchets/cannons in short reach of the barricades. You need these to weaken the AI units before they get to you.
What you want is for the AI's slow units to have a torturously long trek through "no man's land" while under bombardment before they can attack your fortified units.

So in your wall, what tpe of units did you fortify on your fortress/barricade? I have roads going between my outpost, and the outposts are in my territory, so I did not think that the slow units could move fast to them since they can not take advantage of my road work?

 

[Pook]

Originally posted by model359


So in your wall, what tpe of units did you fortify on your fortress/barricade? I have roads going between my outpost, and the outposts are in my territory, so I did not think that the slow units could move fast to them since they can not take advantage of my road work?

I had musketmen and cannons in the barricades. As you can tell, I also had a lot of 'spare' workers to be building a wall about 15 tiles across and 2 deep.

You're right, if all of these barricades are in your territory then movement speed is not an issue. My barricades were right up against my border. As soon as war came, I used cannons to destroy the roads on the other side of the border.

I built this wall because my neighbor was a stronger AI and I had a lot of forces out conquering a weak civ on another continent.

One bad idea of mine: once I got to Nationalism (but not yet to sanitation), I drafted some riflemen out of size 12 cities and used them in the barricades. That didn't work well: my veteran musketmen were far more effective than conscript riflemen. The conscripts were a speed bump at best to the attacking AI.

 

[a4phantom]

I think fortresses are seriously nerfed in Civ3 because of the ability to move from one square adjacent to an enemy unit to another. In Civs 1 and 2, you could not, so having a unit in a defensible position denied your rivals a lot of action. I'm glad they changed this, because it was really obnoxious and ridiculous, especially in peacetime, and ZOC is much better. But as a result, there are few instances in which a fortress is very useful, when invasion forces can simply go around it an attack a city that is minus the troops in the fortress!

The only time building a fortress was helpful to me was during my first Ottoman campaign, on Warlord, Panagea. The turn I declared war on the Arabs, I invaded with Sipahi from the west and landed a bunch of musketmen and workers on their only saltpeter source. The musketmen pillaged the road and then fortified, while the workers built a fortress around them. Because this was close to Mecca, the Arabs sent waves of mideval infantry and Ansar Warriors against this force, allowing me to take the offensive in the West without fear of counterattack or replacement of Arab musketmen. It might be similarly useful to build fortresses on squares holding vital resources near your border, but generally in Civ3, unless there is a specific square that must be held, I don't think fortresses are generally worth the investment.

 

[Seanirl]

For longer borders i dont recommend them.

yup, but once, just because I had one hell of a lot of workers (most of them slaves from my conquests) and had taken the whole west side of our continent and was planning the invasion of Russia, which like in real life was fairly big, I built this huge line of fortifications and barricades across the entire border

It wasn't a choke-point by any stretch of the imagination, it must have been at least 10 tiles.

I was pretty sure I could beat Russia, but just in case wanted to have an impenetrable infantry line to fall back on.

There were actually a few tiles of the line in Russian territory, not that that stopped me from building a fort there

And now I control about half the world and I dunno... about almost 3/4 of the world's population .

It's funny though when I look at it, I've such a huge empire and only about 10 of the cities I founded myself. Well maybe 12 or 13 if you count the few I made in the western continent to fill some culture gaps.

 

[model359]

Originally posted by Seanirl


yup, but once, just because I had one hell of a lot of workers (most of them slaves from my conquests) and had taken the whole west side of our continent and was planning the invasion of Russia, which like in real life was fairly big, I built this huge line of fortifications and barricades across the entire border

It wasn't a choke-point by any stretch of the imagination, it must have been at least 10 tiles.

I was pretty sure I could beat Russia, but just in case wanted to have an impenetrable infantry line to fall back on.

There were actually a few tiles of the line in Russian territory, not that that stopped me from building a fort there

And now I control about half the world and I dunno... about almost 3/4 of the world's population .

It's funny though when I look at it, I've such a huge empire and only about 10 of the cities I founded myself. Well maybe 12 or 13 if you count the few I made in the western continent to fill some culture gaps.

My feelings exactly... the AI is a bunch of back stabbing freaks anyways... I say... KILL THEM ALL

 

[tmarze]

I am not quite understanding this yet if you have an entire continent to yourself and I am in the modern era with nukes and
everything else what is the best way to use fortresses and radars?
barricades and fortresses are the samething right?
What is the differance in just playing campains and just playing a map?
I read these entries and I saw where someone build layers of walls how do you do that?

tmarze

 

[a4phantom]

Barricades are apparently upgraded fortresses that are introduced in Conquests. If you have the whole continent to yourself, I can't imagine what you would use fortresses/barricades for. Radar installations however might be useful near points you expect bombardments or landings at.

 

[tmarze]

thanks

 

[Park Ranger]

Originally posted by a4phantom
But as a result, there are few instances in which a fortress is very useful, when invasion forces can simply go around it an attack a city that is minus the troops in the fortress!

If you can position the fortresses/barricades in such a way as to block the shortest routes from your border to your cities, then the fortresses will help you hold those key tiles (eg the one that is on the border and also right next to your city. Even if fast troops like cavalry can still get around, the fortresses, when properly garrisoned, can weaken the cav with ZOC, and note that the AI's 1mp defenders will not be able to keep up, allowing for easy counterattack on the fast units.

Some balance is needed, of course. Makes no sense to put key defenders in a fortress when the opponent can take an alternate route to attack your cities. Only once you have all the "quick" routes covered with garrisoned fortresses can you safely consider scaling back on the in-city defense.

 

[Pook]

Originally posted by Park Ranger


If you can position the fortresses/barricades in such a way as to block the shortest routes from your border to your cities, then the fortresses will help you hold those key tiles (eg the one that is on the border and also right next to your city. Even if fast troops like cavalry can still get around, the fortresses, when properly garrisoned, can weaken the cav with ZOC, and note that the AI's 1mp defenders will not be able to keep up, allowing for easy counterattack on the fast units.

Some balance is needed, of course. Makes no sense to put key defenders in a fortress when the opponent can take an alternate route to attack your cities. Only once you have all the "quick" routes covered with garrisoned fortresses can you safely consider scaling back on the in-city defense.

Absolutely. The AI is foolish enough to obligingly send its troops up the shortest route to attack you. If you don't have the hordes of workers and time needed to build a Maginot Line, you can do it on the cheap by:
1) Pillaging/bombarding all roads except the shortest path, and
2) Putting barricades on the shortest path

Some may say I'm contradicting my earlier post which said to destroy all the roads between your barricades and the AI. Method to my madness:
1) If you don't care where on that border the AI attacks (you're defending it "in general", or the border is such that a lot of places are tied for shortest path), then destroy all the roads between your land and AI-land
2) If you're trying to very specifically channel the AI forces, then leave intact the road on the shortest path.

My "layers of walls" were just barricades two tiles deep. Even if the AI managed to break into a barricade, they're usually so weak by that time that it's easy to counterattack and push them out. My big concern was a Stack Of Doom attack breaking into a barricade. If that had happened, I would surround the SOD with fortified defensive units in my first & second layers of barricades, while having my (mostly slave) workers building a third (!) layer of barricades, all the while pummeling them with the 25+ cannons I had.

The goal is to make the AI duplicate the Charge of the Light Brigade, with similar results.

 

[a4phantom]

No, I don't really want my enemies celebrated in poetry and legend. I want them forgotten.

 

[Cuivienen]

Perhaps, then, to make it look like another Battle of Fredericksburg (American Civil War reference).