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[Gumbolt]

This save looks a bit more challenging. The plains 1N of the settler could be a resource.All I can see in the fog is forest and mountain.

Spawn busting on Noble? Not sure how much of a threat barb are on this level.

Think Lymond has planned out your first 15 turns pretty well.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spawn busting on Noble? Not sure how much of a threat barb are on this level.

Barbarians on Noble are far fewer in number and take far longer to advance than on Deity, so you've got a lot more time to prepare for them, but beyond that delay they're no less capable of picking off unescorted workers/settlers (in fact Noble might be more dangerous than Deity in that regard, since 2 Wolves and Panthers hang around for a lot longer) and attacking your units/cities than barbs on Deity if you don't have an answer ready for them by the time they arrive.

 

[dankok]

Don't units have a bonus against barbs on Noble?

 

[AcaMetis]

They do, IIRC they get +10% vs. animals. Though just in case let me double-check that real quick...

Okay, I was way off: +40% vs. animals, +10% vs. human barbs on Noble. That's a much bigger bonus than I remember the player getting. Mind you that +10% isn't going to change the tide of battle of a barb axe attacks a warrior, but that bonus does take a significant edge off of early exploring, especially since you get two free wins and can get your initial scout/warrior a guaranteed promotion before they have to actually fight for real.

 

[Knightfall]

Yep, this start looks very good. Hmm..not sure what you mean by ugly. BUG is not a graphical mod. It just improves the UI and information is easier to access. BUG should not add too much to processing needs and just a few megs of memory. IV is an old game and should work fine on more recent machines even with integrated graphics. IV has a known memory leak issue that even the best machines encounter but BUG isn't going to impact that. Anyway, it is your choice of course, but BUG is highly recommended.

Anyhoo, I was starting a spiel on analyzing your start in an earlier post, so some of that applies. What does not apply in this case is obvious tiles to possibly settle for a bonus to center tile. I don't see that here. But you do have two good food resources, so you are not going to move away from them.

You have what looks to be quite a few river grass tiles, so this city should make decent Bureau cap (cottages and Bureaucracy civic), and a good bit of forest for chopping. So here, we will still move the warrior first, but there is nothing really that stands out that makes the decision where to move him important other than just a better view. I can tell in the fog that you are surrounded by more forests in the 2nd layer, so likely no more resources in BFC (Big Fat Cross) from settling in place.

I see some open tiles to the SW so I'm inclined to move the warrior 1SW on the hill just to get a good view. If nothing notable presents itself, then I would just SIP which is probably what you would do regardless in this case.

Build worker first, of course, and tech AG. Likely BW next.

Warrior should move in apprx. a 5 to 10 tile radius around our cap borders to scout resources and new city spots..not farther than that ..and then spawnbust the next city spot.

Couple of notes:

1) Spawnbusting means standing a unit outside your borders to limit/eliminate barb spawn. A unit will spawnbust a 5X5 tile area from the tile he stands on. No barbs can spawn in this area. Very helpful trick. You do not need units in your cities very early..they should be out spawnbusting

2) Another little trick is deselecting your tech for the first 5 turn of the game. So select a tech..doesn't matter..and deselect...end turn. The game stores beakers for the first 5 turns. On the fifth turn select agriculture. Next turn the stored beakers and that turn's beakers apply. What this does is allow you to meet AIs during the first 5 turns. If the AI knows that tech ..say AG..you get a small bonus to the tech. (just make sure you select the tech you want on Turn 5 ..you don't lose the stored beakers but the game randomly applies them to a tech)

Play a turnset until the worker pops.

Lastly, just for perspective as you start this shadow game, I want to make clear that early turns are so important in the game. Every thing counts so you want to make good decisions. That is what we are trying to do for you here...get you to think about these things and not make wasteful choices.

This save looks a bit more challenging. The plains 1N of the settler could be a resource.All I can see in the fog is forest and mountain.

Spawn busting on Noble? Not sure how much of a threat barb are on this level.

Think Lymond has planned out your first 15 turns pretty well.

Barbarians on Noble are far fewer in number and take far longer to advance than on Deity, so you've got a lot more time to prepare for them, but beyond that delay they're no less capable of picking off unescorted workers/settlers (in fact Noble might be more dangerous than Deity in that regard, since 2 Wolves and Panthers hang around for a lot longer) and attacking your units/cities than barbs on Deity if you don't have an answer ready for them by the time they arrive.

Don't units have a bonus against barbs on Noble?

They do, IIRC they get +10% vs. animals. Though just in case let me double-check that real quick...

Okay, I was way off: +40% vs. animals, +10% vs. human barbs on Noble. That's a much bigger bonus than I remember the player getting. Mind you that +10% isn't going to change the tide of battle of a barb axe attacks a warrior, but that bonus does take a significant edge off of early exploring, especially since you get two free wins and can get your initial scout/warrior a guaranteed promotion before they have to actually fight for real.

Alright, first 15 turns done. Worker just finished, sent him to improve Wheat. Agriculture researched, on way to Bronze Working. Not too many good city sites nearby, though there is one spot with Cows and Wine to the west that looks promising. Getting a little concerned about the neighbors, as Japan and Rome are close by. Save is attached to this post.

BTW I think one of the things that was hampering my early game was that I didn't explore enough early on. One artifact of the fact that I came here from VI was that I always left my starting Warrior to defend my capital (VI barbs are extremely aggressive and will try to take you out if you don't build a strong early army). Thus, I wouldn't start scouting until I built a second Warrior, usually around turn 25 or so.

 

[dankok]

Alright, first 15 turns done. Worker just finished, sent him to improve Wheat. Agriculture researched, on way to Bronze Working. Not too many good city sites nearby, though there is one spot with Cows and Wine to the west that looks promising. Getting a little concerned about the neighbors, as Japan and Rome are close by. Save is attached to this post.

BTW I think one of the things that was hampering my early game was that I didn't explore enough early on. One artifact of the fact that I came here from VI was that I always left my starting Warrior to defend my capital (VI barbs are extremely aggressive and will try to take you out if you don't build a strong early army). Thus, I wouldn't start scouting until I built a second Warrior, usually around turn 25 or so.

Wait for BW to finish before deciding on the 2nd city. Claiming Copper is very important. This time you do have aggressive neighbours. Both Toku and Julius will declare war at Pleased and train plenty of units. Toku is also an isolationist and it's hard to get him to open borders and trade with him. Considering how close he is, I would consider killing him early especially if his capital is on good land. And yes keep exploring with your Warrior. Basically make ever larger rings around the capital. If you settle cities in the jungle it will require Iron Working to clear plus a ton of worker turns. Look to settle at least 3 cities without going into the jungle belt. Keep your science slider at 100%.

 

[Gumbolt]

I would play on till BW.

If you only plan to grow to size 2 and do settler maybe wheat first is fine. The worker can help chop settler. Once corn and wheat are improved. Getting a flood plains at size 3 adds 1 food a turn. A mine might provide 2 hammers towards a settler. A chop provides 20 hammers in 4 turns.(Including turn to move)

If you have copper I would be rushing Toku with 5-6 axes. Question is do you wait for the second city? The second city would really need AH. The cow site so far looks best. 1N or 1S of it? Your warrior could form part of that stack as a mop up unit.

If I was purely building a cottage helper city for capital I might of settled on the wine. Major issue is it only has flood plains and needs a border pop which could be 10-20+ turns off.

To be fair Toku will have only warrior defenders so a warrior rush could work just as well. Which is why you should stop at BW. As copper will require the wheel. Albeit you also need ah. If you had horse a chariot rush would work against warriors.

Choices.

I would explore coast next to warrior and have him explore next to Toku land. That would also help fog bust for a city.

Forget about jungle and open borders for now. Play what you can see. This is Noble. The Romans won't be sending stacks of doom your way in next 50-80 turns. In any cases you could well have copper in your BFC.

 

[Fish Man]

Can you upload the WB t0 save so people w/ steam can play along? Just a request for my curiosity.

 

[Lennier]

And can you post screenshots so those not near their Civ IV computer can see what's gong on?

 

[pigswill]

You ain't gonna axe-rush anyone if you don't have copper so maybe don't plan too far ahead and play until you've got BW in 6 turns.

 

[Knightfall]

Wait for BW to finish before deciding on the 2nd city. Claiming Copper is very important. This time you do have aggressive neighbours. Both Toku and Julius will declare war at Pleased and train plenty of units. Toku is also an isolationist and it's hard to get him to open borders and trade with him. Considering how close he is, I would consider killing him early especially if his capital is on good land. And yes keep exploring with your Warrior. Basically make ever larger rings around the capital. If you settle cities in the jungle it will require Iron Working to clear plus a ton of worker turns. Look to settle at least 3 cities without going into the jungle belt. Keep your science slider at 100%.

I would play on till BW.

If you only plan to grow to size 2 and do settler maybe wheat first is fine. The worker can help chop settler. Once corn and wheat are improved. Getting a flood plains at size 3 adds 1 food a turn. A mine might provide 2 hammers towards a settler. A chop provides 20 hammers in 4 turns.(Including turn to move)

If you have copper I would be rushing Toku with 5-6 axes. Question is do you wait for the second city? The second city would really need AH. The cow site so far looks best. 1N or 1S of it? Your warrior could form part of that stack as a mop up unit.

If I was purely building a cottage helper city for capital I might of settled on the wine. Major issue is it only has flood plains and needs a border pop which could be 10-20+ turns off.

To be fair Toku will have only warrior defenders so a warrior rush could work just as well. Which is why you should stop at BW. As copper will require the wheel. Albeit you also need ah. If you had horse a chariot rush would work against warriors.

Choices.

I would explore coast next to warrior and have him explore next to Toku land. That would also help fog bust for a city.

Forget about jungle and open borders for now. Play what you can see. This is Noble. The Romans won't be sending stacks of doom your way in next 50-80 turns. In any cases you could well have copper in your BFC.

Can you upload the WB t0 save so people w/ steam can play along? Just a request for my curiosity.

Not entirely sure what that means. The original save is in the OP, if that is what you are looking for.

And can you post screenshots so those not near their Civ IV computer can see what's gong on?

Sorry about that, couldn't remember how to screenshot. One is attached to this post.

You ain't gonna axe-rush anyone if you don't have copper so maybe don't plan too far ahead and play until you've got BW in 6 turns.

Just got BW and adopted Slavery, so now I can whip/chop. Copper nearby, probably going to settle near it. Capital should be at pop 3 soon, then will build Settler. Worker will finish improving Corn, then start chopping. Probably going to try to axe-rush Tokugawa if possible. Currently researching AH to be able to improve Cows. After that probably going to go for Pottery, and then after that either Mysticism for Monuments or Archery in case the axe-rush goes bad and I have to go on the defensive.

 

[dankok]

Not entirely sure what that means. The original save is in the OP, if that is what you are looking for.


Sorry about that, couldn't remember how to screenshot. One is attached to this post.


Just got BW and adopted Slavery, so now I can whip/chop. Copper nearby, probably going to settle near it. Capital should be at pop 3 soon, then will build Settler. Worker will finish improving Corn, then start chopping. Probably going to try to axe-rush Tokugawa if possible. Currently researching AH to be able to improve Cows. After that probably going to go for Pottery, and then after that either Mysticism for Monuments or Archery in case the axe-rush goes bad and I have to go on the defensive.

Don't worry. The axerush won't fail. You don't need Archery. Also don't need AH right now. You need to hook up Copper for those Axes ASAP so settle on the plains hill 1N of the Copper. Yes you lose the Cows in your second city that way but you gain a lot in terms of speed. Settle 2N of the Copper and you will hook it up much later (need Mysticism then build a Monument then wait 10 turns for the border pop) and the rush won't reap as much rewards even if it works. Speed is of the essence if you indeed want to rush him. My advice is do it. Ideally an early rush with Axes should completely eliminate the enemy civ so you don't have to deal with unhappiness and revolts because of foreign culture. But if you wait too long the AI could have 4-5 cities and then it may be tougher to take him out. SPEED IS EVERYTHING! No later than 1500 BC you should be in his land with a horde of 6-8 axes. Earlier is definitely possible but 1500 BC is a good guideline.

Research Wheel first for roads because you'll need it to connect the Copper. Then Pottery for Granaries and Cottages. Granaries help cities grow and more importantly help them regrow quickly after whipping. There is no more important building in this game than Granary. One of the early techs you want to research is Writing to build Libraries. Libraries are the second most important buildings after Granaries because they let you run Science specialists when you're bleeding gold from overexpanding. It lets you keep teching even with a weak economy and running those Scientists lets you generate Great People. Specialists also have strong synergy with Pyramids because you can run Representation for +3 beakers per Scientist on top of the normal 3 beakers but you won't need to build it in this game. With Hannibal being Financial you can safely rely on Cottages as the staple of your economy and prosper. Cottages are also far simpler to micromanage. Simply work them and they grow and grow and give you more and more commerce with time. With Scientists, you need to constantly adjust tiles between growth and putting on specialists. In this game, you simply need to build a Library in your capital and run a couple of Scientists so that you get a Great Scientist.

 

[Gumbolt]

If your going axes then The Wheel is useful. Your second city is unlikely to have cows in it.

Plains hill vs 3E. 3E could use 2 of the flood plains and help capital with cottages. Having more food available helps with city growth.

Plains hill give 1 extra production. Then would likely need farms after size 2.

If Toku only has warriors 3-4 axes may be enough. If he has archers you would need more. Assuming he has BW to whip.

In any case I would play up to settler and go TW next. Then decide where to settle.

AH vs pottery? You will be building a lot of axes here.Workers will be mostly chopping and building road to second city. The order may not matter at all. I suspect with monarch tech rate you will have both soon enough. Finding horse is always nice. HA could of probably rolled over this map. However axe rushes can still be fun with all that forest.

 

[Fish Man]

Not entirely sure what that means. The original save is in the OP, if that is what you are looking for.


Sorry about that, couldn't remember how to screenshot. One is attached to this post.


Just got BW and adopted Slavery, so now I can whip/chop. Copper nearby, probably going to settle near it. Capital should be at pop 3 soon, then will build Settler. Worker will finish improving Corn, then start chopping. Probably going to try to axe-rush Tokugawa if possible. Currently researching AH to be able to improve Cows. After that probably going to go for Pottery, and then after that either Mysticism for Monuments or Archery in case the axe-rush goes bad and I have to go on the defensive.

I mean the worldbuilder save. Open up worldbuilder after pressing esc and then save the file so that others with different versions of the game (or other mods) may be able to play along. Zoom all the way in so you avoid spoiling the map for yourself.

 

[pi-r8]

I suggest not axe-rushing tokugawa. For two reasons:

a) This is supposed to be a learning game, right? I don't think you'll learn much from the axe rush. Maybe it succeeds, maybe it fails, either way the game is pretty well decided by this one play (with a lot of random chance). You can learn a lot more by playing peacefully, until you've got an overwhelming advantage.

b) Tokugawa is maybe the worst leader of all to axe rush. He's militaristic, so he builds a lot of units even when he's not at war. He's Aggressive Protective, so both his axes and his archers get extra promotions (and you're not aggressive). Despite that, he's not (diplomatically) aggressive, he just wants to be left alone. And he techs very badly. You don't seem to be squeezed in- just expand and tech normally. Go after him later when you've got a huge edge in tech, or at least when you're out of room to expand peacefully.

 

[Knightfall]

Don't worry. The axerush won't fail. You don't need Archery. Also don't need AH right now. You need to hook up Copper for those Axes ASAP so settle on the plains hill 1N of the Copper. Yes you lose the Cows in your second city that way but you gain a lot in terms of speed. Settle 2N of the Copper and you will hook it up much later (need Mysticism then build a Monument then wait 10 turns for the border pop) and the rush won't reap as much rewards even if it works. Speed is of the essence if you indeed want to rush him. My advice is do it. Ideally an early rush with Axes should completely eliminate the enemy civ so you don't have to deal with unhappiness and revolts because of foreign culture. But if you wait too long the AI could have 4-5 cities and then it may be tougher to take him out. SPEED IS EVERYTHING! No later than 1500 BC you should be in his land with a horde of 6-8 axes. Earlier is definitely possible but 1500 BC is a good guideline.

Research Wheel first for roads because you'll need it to connect the Copper. Then Pottery for Granaries and Cottages. Granaries help cities grow and more importantly help them regrow quickly after whipping. There is no more important building in this game than Granary. One of the early techs you want to research is Writing to build Libraries. Libraries are the second most important buildings after Granaries because they let you run Science specialists when you're bleeding gold from overexpanding. It lets you keep teching even with a weak economy and running those Scientists lets you generate Great People. Specialists also have strong synergy with Pyramids because you can run Representation for +3 beakers per Scientist on top of the normal 3 beakers but you won't need to build it in this game. With Hannibal being Financial you can safely rely on Cottages as the staple of your economy and prosper. Cottages are also far simpler to micromanage. Simply work them and they grow and grow and give you more and more commerce with time. With Scientists, you need to constantly adjust tiles between growth and putting on specialists. In this game, you simply need to build a Library in your capital and run a couple of Scientists so that you get a Great Scientist.

If your going axes then The Wheel is useful. Your second city is unlikely to have cows in it.

Plains hill vs 3E. 3E could use 2 of the flood plains and help capital with cottages. Having more food available helps with city growth.

Plains hill give 1 extra production. Then would likely need farms after size 2.

If Toku only has warriors 3-4 axes may be enough. If he has archers you would need more. Assuming he has BW to whip.

In any case I would play up to settler and go TW next. Then decide where to settle.

AH vs pottery? You will be building a lot of axes here.Workers will be mostly chopping and building road to second city. The order may not matter at all. I suspect with monarch tech rate you will have both soon enough. Finding horse is always nice. HA could of probably rolled over this map. However axe rushes can still be fun with all that forest.

I mean the worldbuilder save. Open up worldbuilder after pressing esc and then save the file so that others with different versions of the game (or other mods) may be able to play along. Zoom all the way in so you avoid spoiling the map for yourself.

OK, we have a situation. The axe rush is failing fast; he has archers dug-in on a city on a hill, which basically means they're un-killable. His 2 Archers wiped out my entire army of 6 Axemen. What should I do? Part of me wants to just build more Axemen and keep fighting, but another part wants to truce and then come back later with Catapults and Swordsmen.

In other news, I was obviously able to get Copper. My capital is chugging along nicely, with a Granary, Library, and Monument, but I'm starting to have happiness issues because of crowding and whipping. My other city is growing slowly, but that's not too big of any issue right now. Tech-wise, I've researched Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Animal Husbandry, and Mysticism (Monuments give Hannibal +1 happiness, so it seemed like a good investment). I've met Huayna and Bismarck to the far north, but I don't think either of them constitute an immediate threat.

Really unsure of what to do now. I can probably win this war eventually, but I'm getting worried about potentially running my civ into the ground doing nothing but spamming Axemen. The way things stand right now, I could probably just truce him and then pen him in with my own cities while I build up a tech lead.
Or should i just savescum and go back to my last save and try again?

Save and WB save attached (sorry, forgot to take screenshot).

 

[dankok]

OK, we have a situation. The axe rush is failing fast; he has archers dug-in on a city on a hill, which basically means they're un-killable. His 2 Archers wiped out my entire army of 6 Axemen. What should I do? Part of me wants to just build more Axemen and keep fighting, but another part wants to truce and then come back later with Catapults and Swordsmen.

In other news, I was obviously able to get Copper. My capital is chugging along nicely, with a Granary, Library, and Monument, but I'm starting to have happiness issues because of crowding and whipping. My other city is growing slowly, but that's not too big of any issue right now. Tech-wise, I've researched Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Animal Husbandry, and Mysticism (Monuments give Hannibal +1 happiness, so it seemed like a good investment). I've met Huayna and Bismarck to the far north, but I don't think either of them constitute an immediate threat.

Really unsure of what to do now. I can probably win this war eventually, but I'm getting worried about potentially running my civ into the ground doing nothing but spamming Axemen. The way things stand right now, I could probably just truce him and then pen him in with my own cities while I build up a tech lead.
Or should i just savescum and go back to my last save and try again?

Save and WB save attached (sorry, forgot to take screenshot).

Ok I took a look at the save. I recommend restarting from the last save and rushing him again. You made a couple of avoidable mistakes.

1) You seem to have attacked piecemeal and not with all of your Axes on the same turn. Your last attack on Kyoto was with 2 Axes based on the game log which just isn't sufficient. Take 6-8 Axes and attack a city with them all on the same turn. And move towards the city along the shortest possible path to give them less time to prepare.

2) Chop or whip Barracks before you build Axes. Then choose the City Raider I promo. It gives your boys quite a bit more power.

3) You razed Osaka. Maybe it wasn't a perfect city but it grabbed Horses. Definitely a city you could have kept. Maybe it was size 1 and autorazed but either way you could have avoided this if you didn't attack it first.

4) You should have attacked Kyoto first. It's the Japanese capital and most important city. Take that and the rest is just remnants for mop-up. With very few exceptions always attack the capital during the early rush.

 

[Fish Man]

OK, we have a situation. The axe rush is failing fast; he has archers dug-in on a city on a hill, which basically means they're un-killable. His 2 Archers wiped out my entire army of 6 Axemen. What should I do? Part of me wants to just build more Axemen and keep fighting, but another part wants to truce and then come back later with Catapults and Swordsmen.

In other news, I was obviously able to get Copper. My capital is chugging along nicely, with a Granary, Library, and Monument, but I'm starting to have happiness issues because of crowding and whipping. My other city is growing slowly, but that's not too big of any issue right now. Tech-wise, I've researched Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Animal Husbandry, and Mysticism (Monuments give Hannibal +1 happiness, so it seemed like a good investment). I've met Huayna and Bismarck to the far north, but I don't think either of them constitute an immediate threat.

Really unsure of what to do now. I can probably win this war eventually, but I'm getting worried about potentially running my civ into the ground doing nothing but spamming Axemen. The way things stand right now, I could probably just truce him and then pen him in with my own cities while I build up a tech lead.
Or should i just savescum and go back to my last save and try again?

Save and WB save attached (sorry, forgot to take screenshot).

Many thanks! Would it be possible to attach the t0 WB save as well, though?

And yeah, axerush was a bad idea in this case...build up until cats at the very least (or HAs if you have horses).

 

[pigswill]

It is possible to axerush Toku. Just need a bit of luck and a few tweaks to your gameplay.

Spoiler :

I pinched a worker from Toku in 2560 (after settling copper city), short faux war and ceasefire asap then waited for an archer to move out of Kyoto.before declaring. Maybe pinching the worker delayed Toku's settler.

 

[dankok]

@Knightfall

Just want to clarify something. The reason to never attack a city with a few units at a time and always the entire stack is that when an enemy unit fortified in a city wins a battle they often get promoted and using that promotion will heal them substantially. They also heal a bit every turn from being fortified and not moving. So for instance you use an Axe to attack Toku's Archer and you bring the Archer down to 30% health, if you don't finish it off this turn that Archer next turn might have 85% health plus a City Garrison II promotion which boosts its defense so now you have to fight a strong unit again. Whereas if you use more Axes you can easily kill the weakened units from the initial assaults. Always attack with all units at once!