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Okay I played from your previous save with BW.
I built settler at size 2. Followed up with a worker. Chops toward both.
Stole a worker.
Attacked his capital 1880bc with a stack of 6 axes and 1 warrior. He had archer and warrior. Lost one axe taking city.
If you damage the archer on first attack the odds for second attack are 70%+. Even with 2 archers you should of been able to take the city.
I whipped one axe with 4 hammers put into build.

I would not of allowed him to send out that settler. So you either wanted to worker steal or kill settler as it leaves his border.

I would not play such long sessions here as you are making some big mistakes.

Nothing wrong with an axe rush. You need to improve your game in as many areas as possible.

Hopefully you revolted to slavery after you built the settler? Unless you whipped the settler?

Also you want a defender in cities size 4 and over or you will get unhappy faces. You probably should of whipped a granary or settler at size 4. Always look to expand.
 
OK, we have a situation. The axe rush is failing fast; he has archers dug-in on a city on a hill, which basically means they're un-killable. His 2 Archers wiped out my entire army of 6 Axemen. What should I do? Part of me wants to just build more Axemen and keep fighting, but another part wants to truce and then come back later with Catapults and Swordsmen.

In other news, I was obviously able to get Copper. My capital is chugging along nicely, with a Granary, Library, and Monument, but I'm starting to have happiness issues because of crowding and whipping. My other city is growing slowly, but that's not too big of any issue right now. Tech-wise, I've researched Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Animal Husbandry, and Mysticism (Monuments give Hannibal +1 happiness, so it seemed like a good investment). I've met Huayna and Bismarck to the far north, but I don't think either of them constitute an immediate threat.

Really unsure of what to do now. I can probably win this war eventually, but I'm getting worried about potentially running my civ into the ground doing nothing but spamming Axemen. The way things stand right now, I could probably just truce him and then pen him in with my own cities while I build up a tech lead.
Or should i just savescum and go back to my last save and try again?

Save and WB save attached (sorry, forgot to take screenshot).
Like the other people said, the key to combat is to attack with enough units to kill all their stack in one turn, so they can't promote and heal. If you want load your old save and try again, I wouldn't blame you. 6 axes should easily kill 2 archers.

I think you can recover quickly if you make peace. Just make cottages everywhere while growing your cities up to the happiness cap. Once they hit the happiness cap, build/chop/whip a worker or settler, and expand to all nearby happiness resources. Gold/gems/silver/fur/ivory is the best since you can use them immediately. Dye/sugar/spices/silk requires calendar, so probably tech in that direction.
 
Ok I took a look at the save. I recommend restarting from the last save and rushing him again. You made a couple of avoidable mistakes.

1) You seem to have attacked piecemeal and not with all of your Axes on the same turn. Your last attack on Kyoto was with 2 Axes based on the game log which just isn't sufficient. Take 6-8 Axes and attack a city with them all on the same turn. And move towards the city along the shortest possible path to give them less time to prepare.

2) Chop or whip Barracks before you build Axes. Then choose the City Raider I promo. It gives your boys quite a bit more power.

3) You razed Osaka. Maybe it wasn't a perfect city but it grabbed Horses. Definitely a city you could have kept. Maybe it was size 1 and autorazed but either way you could have avoided this if you didn't attack it first.

4) You should have attacked Kyoto first. It's the Japanese capital and most important city. Take that and the rest is just remnants for mop-up. With very few exceptions always attack the capital during the early rush.

Many thanks! Would it be possible to attach the t0 WB save as well, though?

And yeah, axerush was a bad idea in this case...build up until cats at the very least (or HAs if you have horses).

It is possible to axerush Toku. Just need a bit of luck and a few tweaks to your gameplay.
Spoiler :
I pinched a worker from Toku in 2560 (after settling copper city), short faux war and ceasefire asap then waited for an archer to move out of Kyoto.before declaring. Maybe pinching the worker delayed Toku's settler.

@Knightfall

Just want to clarify something. The reason to never attack a city with a few units at a time and always the entire stack is that when an enemy unit fortified in a city wins a battle they often get promoted and using that promotion will heal them substantially. They also heal a bit every turn from being fortified and not moving. So for instance you use an Axe to attack Toku's Archer and you bring the Archer down to 30% health, if you don't finish it off this turn that Archer next turn might have 85% health plus a City Garrison II promotion which boosts its defense so now you have to fight a strong unit again. Whereas if you use more Axes you can easily kill the weakened units from the initial assaults. Always attack with all units at once!

Okay I played from your previous save with BW.
I built settler at size 2. Followed up with a worker. Chops toward both.
Stole a worker.
Attacked his capital 1880bc with a stack of 6 axes and 1 warrior. He had archer and warrior. Lost one axe taking city.
If you damage the archer on first attack the odds for second attack are 70%+. Even with 2 archers you should of been able to take the city.
I whipped one axe with 4 hammers put into build.

I would not of allowed him to send out that settler. So you either wanted to worker steal or kill settler as it leaves his border.

I would not play such long sessions here as you are making some big mistakes.

Nothing wrong with an axe rush. You need to improve your game in as many areas as possible.

Hopefully you revolted to slavery after you built the settler? Unless you whipped the settler?

Also you want a defender in cities size 4 and over or you will get unhappy faces. You probably should of whipped a granary or settler at size 4. Always look to expand.

Like the other people said, the key to combat is to attack with enough units to kill all their stack in one turn, so they can't promote and heal. If you want load your old save and try again, I wouldn't blame you. 6 axes should easily kill 2 archers.

I think you can recover quickly if you make peace. Just make cottages everywhere while growing your cities up to the happiness cap. Once they hit the happiness cap, build/chop/whip a worker or settler, and expand to all nearby happiness resources. Gold/gems/silver/fur/ivory is the best since you can use them immediately. Dye/sugar/spices/silk requires calendar, so probably tech in that direction.

Alright, decided to reload last save and try again. Reporting in from 2480 BC, just connected Copper. Preparing to chop Barracks in capital, then start cranking out Axemen (might take a brief break at some point to whip a Granary). Second city is building a Worker, then will start on Axemen as well. Will get about 7-8 Axemen and headshot the enemy capital. I was torn about trying the axe-rush again or not, but decided that I should. Right now I have a major military advantage, as Tokugawa does not have Copper or Horses and can't build Walls. The minute he gets any of these things, my advantage is gone, and I probably won't be able to get it back until well into the Classical era, so its best to strike now. Taking @Gumbolt's advice and going to keep playing in short bursts for now; last time I think I got cocky and messed up, so I should proceed with a little more caution. Saves attached, also attached turn 0 WB save to OP.
 

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Sorry, haven't had time to look at this much, but just glanced at a bit of the above. You don't need a barracks. If early rushing a nearby neighbor, just build Axes asap. 2pop whip and chop Axes only. You probably need just 4 to 6 axes if you get them out asap. Barracks is a waste of time this early.

The biggest roadblock with Toku this early even on this level is how fast he gets archery really. If you don't see copper or he hasn't switched to slavery then metal units are not a concern. Protective Archers on hills very much are, but if he doesn't have time to build any nor can whip them without slavery you should be fine with a few axes.

Speed is the key. Hypothetically you could rush a neighbor that close to you with a stack of warriors on noble. (ha..actually that is not a hypothetical..its a fact)
 
Agree with lymond that a rush implies speed, forget rax and granary, you probably didn't need a third worker but finish it (with chop) now its half built. Maybe build some mines for cap to work but focus on chops.
 
Leave the Granary for later and Barracks are optional. I usually get them at least in the capital. 50 hammers isn't much.

Just did a quick test vs. Protective Archer (CGI, DI) on a hill.

Axe with no promos has 5.4% chance of winning.

Axe with CRI has 7.1% chance of winning.

Axe with CI has 7.5% chance of winning.

That's not much of a difference!

Promos actually make a much bigger difference when Archers are not Pro or not on hills. Toku's Archers have so many defensive bonuses that a promo on Axes doesn't make a big difference. CRI takes off 20% from the defender which is nothing when that defender gets +185%. CI actually does a bit better but far from impressive.

In this case, I'd skip the Barracks actually. For the cost of Barracks you can pump out an extra Axe and have some hammers left over. That will give you a better result.
 
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Sorry, haven't had time to look at this much, but just glanced at a bit of the above. You don't need a barracks. If early rushing a nearby neighbor, just build Axes asap. 2pop whip and chop Axes only. You probably need just 4 to 6 axes if you get them out asap. Barracks is a waste of time this early.

The biggest roadblock with Toku this early even on this level is how fast he gets archery really. If you don't see copper or he hasn't switched to slavery then metal units are not a concern. Protective Archers on hills very much are, but if he doesn't have time to build any nor can whip them without slavery you should be fine with a few axes.

Speed is the key. Hypothetically you could rush a neighbor that close to you with a stack of warriors on noble. (ha..actually that is not a hypothetical..its a fact)

Agree with lymond that a rush implies speed, forget rax and granary, you probably didn't need a third worker but finish it (with chop) now its half built. Maybe build some mines for cap to work but focus on chops.

Leave the Granary for later and Barracks are optional. I usually get them at least in the capital. 50 hammers isn't much.

Just did a quick test vs. Protective Archer (CGI, DI) on a hill.

Axe with no promos has 5.4% chance of winning.

Axe with CRI has 7.1% chance of winning.

Axe with CI has 7.5% chance of winning.

That's not much of a difference!

Promos actually make a much bigger difference when Archers are not Pro or not on hills. Toku's Archers have so many defensive bonuses that a promo on Axes doesn't make a big difference. CRI takes off 20% from the defender which is nothing when that defender gets +185%. CI actually does a bit better but far from impressive.

In this case, I'd skip the Barracks actually. For the cost of Barracks you can pump out an extra Axe and have some hammers left over. That will give you a better result.

Alright, reporting from 1440 BC. The axe-rush worked; Tokugawa is down, and his two cities are mine, with all attendant resources. My nearest neighbor, Rome, is far away beyond the jungle belt to the north, and has good relations with me, so I have no more immediate threats. With that in mind, I think it's time for some peaceful expansion and consolidation. As such, I was wondering about a few things:
- What should I focus my research on?
- Should I spend money on espionage?
- What should I build?
- How big does my military need to be?
- How many cities should I found before stopping to consolidate?
- Should I try to get a religion?
- Should I decide on a victory path yet?
Saves and screenshot attached.
 

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Hey KF

Congrats on the successful axe rush. Honestly, what I usually like to emphasis for newer players in these shadow games is basics like worker management, economy and expansion. However, sometimes an early rush is simply the best thing. Toku was so close and an easy target. The other option though considering the land layout was simply boxing him in.

I think at a minimum you learned a bit about how to execute an early rush. Many times early rushes are just not feasible especially on higher levels..really depends on the layout and proximity, and your access to strategic resources, of course

My one comment, as I was not able to follow much earlier, is that I would have settled the Copper city 1E of current location, which makes it a good helper city for cottages in Kyoto. Overlapping cities is actually a good thing.

I will address your questions next, and then expand on some other key points.

AWith that in mind, I think it's time for some peaceful expansion and consolidation. :
I think that is indeed best for the moment. Odd on Pangaea that you had only met two AIs up to this point. In most cases on Pangaea, you'd likely have met everyone by now. I think it is the strange layout of a) being on this sorta peninsula at the bottom and b) a jungle barrier to the north of you as jungle can really hindered AI scouting.
- What should I focus my research on?
I think on this level that Alpha would be the best next tech, although with stone just W over there you might pick up masonry for the Pyramids and maybe fail golding wonders. I see no food over there but settling for the stone may be worth it.
- Should I spend money on espionage?
no..not at all...generally just use the +4 ep you get from palace and focus it on a strong techer by putting the weight to 1 in the EP advisor screen. Ofc, you really haven't met anyone other than toku(dead) and Rome. Usually a FIN or IMP leader is good to focus on..think Mansa, Willie or Pacal for example. We can go over this more another time as it really is not relevant for you now.
- What should I build?
granary in those capture cities are good
Utica monument unnecessary really but I guess okay. I'd probably build another worker there next..maybe take that chop just E from that worker (note: without BUG/BULL you have to cancel worker actions to keep them from finishing chops so you put the chop into the right thing. Also, a city needs to "own" the tile to receive the chop..you can do that in the city view screen by clicking the the tile so it goes for dark to light)
Settler is very fine in Carthage. Question is where to settle. extended scouting is a bit of a problem at the moment. Stone is an option but I'd like more info on fogged tiles over there to see if food. If no food in sea, then might just settle on the stone itself. At least city can get some farms around the lake (and green tiles later) and the lake with LH. It is the stone that is important
I would build library next in Carthage with plans to 3 pop whip immediately it at size 6 (make sure less than 30H of production into Library when whipping..so be careful with the forest chops). Then Kyoto can grow into 2 scientists to work toward that Great Scientists (GS) for an academy in Carthage.
- How big does my military need to be?
Does not need to be big at all right now. You've got a few axes for barb protect and spawnbusting
- How many cities should I found before stopping to consolidate?
Well, the first question is where do you settle. As long as you have good or important spots to settle then I would keep expanding. The jungle to the N and E is a bit of a problem at present so my focus would be on cities that can be useful now. Stone provides stone though not food resources visible at present. There is some dry plains sheep down south, but that city could share corn with Carthage. However, the coast all in the South needs to be scouted better to see if any seafood present. I'd like to know what is over E by those horses. I'm going to address scouting in a moment though.
- Should I try to get a religion?
It is not a concern. Definitely don't go for early religions. I'm sure you've already been instructed not to do that. Ais will usually spread to you anyway or via trade routes. You might end up founding one later yourself with a later tech like Code of laws or Pacifism. Religion has some nice benefits but founding them yourself is generally of no import.
- Should I decide on a victory path yet?
Not at the moment. You are building an Empire at the moment. i assume you will likely go with other a conquest or dom victory here with is easy and fun on pangaea or maybe space.


Okay other notes:

1) You need to scout and spawnbust better. I realize though that your attention and resources were focused on ending Japan early. But now you need to explore more around the immediate area. First, that warrior is not needed in Utica. Send him SW to explore coast around stone and then send him along the southern coast to spot for seafood. Those 3 axes in Osaka can all head N, NE and E to scout and spawnbust those areas, getting more information and kiliing/preventing barbs.

Also, considering the meeting Ai problem, one simple solution is first prioritizing a work boat in Kyoto. In fact, i would put 1turn into a workboat there and then 1pop whip it. Then send it out exploring to the NW along the coast to meet AI, since you are clearly at the bottom of the map. WB scout also opens coastal trade routes later which is nice. Not always needed often on a Pangaea like map, but can be a nice option on other types of maps.

2) After whipping wb in Kyoto, go with Monument next (getting a little hammer OF from wb whip) there so city can access that seafood later. Worker can chop forest on a PH next to city to finish monument quickly, then go granary. (Kyoto maybe be good place to build Pyramids with forest chops once you have access to stone)

3) I think I would go ahead with Masonry now for stone access, and then Alpha and probably Maths

4) It is very important to manage your cities wisely and micro each turn if you are willing (How Cities auto-assign new citizens or adjust them is often poor). Carthage has two cottages that are currently not being worked. Cottages do not grow unless worked nor do you receive the commerce from them. So make sure they are worked over the unimproved tiles. Make sure your cities are working improved tiles if at all possible unless they are presently running scientists or specialists.

Also, always prioritize Flood plains and green river tiles over plains tiles for cottages. Since Carthage will be a Bureaucracy capital I would probably eventually cottage riverside plains, it is by far not a priority over that flood plains cottage or the green river tiles (you do have one) If Utica was one E of its current location it could help Carthage grow its cottages - note this.

5) Lastly, there's is an important concept here to learn early with respect to the sliders and teching. Right now, you have some city capture gold from Japan so you have a good bank at the moment to run 100% research. But here is the concept I want you to get use to. Either run 100% research or 0% research to bank gold. You don't need to do so at the moment cause you have gold, but generally the point here is that once you settle that first city you start deficit research. This is the point you start banking gold at 0% until you have enough to fund that next tech-simply do the math. Then immediately raise slider to 100% and complete the tech. Maintenance costs are lower on Noble and techs relatively cheaper so you don't fully realize the effect I'm talking about here, but you will the more you play and as you advance difficulty as maintenance costs increase substantially. This is called binary research. For one, there is a rounding issue in the game that is eliminated by running 0% research (or 100% research), or as we say "maxing out gold".

As an example, try it out now on this turn. Lower slider to 0%. (assume you have switched Carthage to its cottages) You should see the gold at the top at +18 per turn and beakers at 0 per turn from commerce. (note: you do always get 1bpt even at 0%..that is the binary)

Now raise slider to 10%. You now make 15gpt so 10% cost you 3 gpt. But wait, you are only getting 2bpt. Something got lost their..ha. So that is why you max gold at 0% and then run 100%..not in between. This problem gets eliminated later once you get beaker multipliers in place and start running scientists and other stuff. I will show that again later. Plus, you will have ways to get quick chunks of gold to keep slider at 100%. But for now get used to 0% or 100%..not in between.

(Another little educational tip on the slider just in case you are not aware. A lot of new players fail to grasp this concept initially..I know I did. So you may be aware that commerce is a feature of this game represented by those gold coins on the map like from cottages and next to river tiles. Little confusing as commerce :commerce: is actually not gold :gold:. Commerce is directly manipulate by those sliders we have been discussing. Essentially commerce feeds those sliders and the sliders allow you to convert commerce into beakers and gold - as well as culture and espionage. So be aware that when you are adjusting sliders you are directly effecting the way your commerce is used.

Commerce comes from cottages, of course, and rivers tiles which are usually cottaged. Also, some resources like gold, gems, sliver and most calendar resources. Coastal and sea tiles have commerce. And lastly but certainly not least important, trade routes are major providers of commerce. Commerce is the main driver of your economy in this game - less specialist usage.
 
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Alright, reporting from 1440 BC. The axe-rush worked; Tokugawa is down, and his two cities are mine, with all attendant resources. My nearest neighbor, Rome, is far away beyond the jungle belt to the north, and has good relations with me, so I have no more immediate threats. With that in mind, I think it's time for some peaceful expansion and consolidation. As such, I was wondering about a few things:
- What should I focus my research on?
- Should I spend money on espionage?
- What should I build?
- How big does my military need to be?
- How many cities should I found before stopping to consolidate?
- Should I try to get a religion?
- Should I decide on a victory path yet?
Saves and screenshot attached.
Biggest tip I can give you: ctrl + R to turn on resource bubbles, that will help a lot in planning cities.
You're in great shape overall. Lots of land to settle, lots of riverside tiles so just do a balance of building settlers and growing your existing cities to work cottages.
Happiness is probably your main worry at the moment. Looks like your only available happiness resources are spices and wine? I think going for monarchy would be a good play at this point, both for the wines and you can use your leftover army to get extra happiness. Pyramids could work too, but it's a gamble to start on them this late.
Don't build more military, don't get a religion, don't run espionage. Basically don't do anything fancy, just make cities, food resources, happiness, and cottages.
Kyoto would be a good city to build the national epic in and run as many specialists as possible (great person farm).
 
He is Charismatic though, so happiness is not a concern much at all for a long time. And on Noble, he has plenty of time to build Mids for Representation. I don't see a concern at all for happiness.
 
Lymond already gave you some great and very detailed advice. Not much to add.

- Get Granaries up in Kyoto and Osaka
- Explore! Right now there isn't really enough information to know where to settle.
- I think the first city you should settle now is to get Stone (try for Mids in Kyoto with help of chops, even if you fail you'll get some gold). However explore that area west so you can place the Stone city well.
- After that look to settle towards Rome because he may settle that land if you wait too long. You'll have time to backfill later. Generally always settle towards other civs first. There are a lot of nice resources like Banana and Dyes there that you can enable with Calendar in the future. Under jungle is always grasslands too so it makes for good land for Cottages.
- Build Cottages on Flood Plains first, then Grasslands, and ignore Plains in general until Biology or unless a city has big food surplus. Plains are a growth negative tile. Build a cottage on that FP between Carthage and Utica ASAP and a few more on grasslands around Carthage.
- Roading to Osaka isn't urgent. You already have a trade connection via the river.
- Build Workers! You should not work unimproved tiles with few exception like Oasis or Financial coast.
- Kyoto is an absolute food haven with Rice, Cows and two seafood; get a Library in there as soon as it's out of revolt and run some Scientists once it grows and it will get you a Great Scientist. This city is as great an example of a GP farm as you will find in this game. Get a Library in Carthage too as it's growing.
- Research Alphabet so you can trade techs with the AI. Try to trade for Iron Working which will let you cut down jungle.
- Don't build a big army. Axes you have will do a good job to protect you against barbs and also against Rome just in case. Praetorians are their super powerful unique unit that is countered well by Axes. There is enough land here to settle 12ish cities. Your next war can maybe be around Renaissance. Baby steps...

You've done a great job posting regular updates. Play small segments at a time maybe 10-15 turns and you will learn a lot from everyone's feedback. It's a hard game and it's satisfying to make progress.

Great job on the Axe rush by the way. Feels good to bash someone's skull in! :D
 
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Why is your capital running the forests over the 2 cottage tiles. Settler will still take 4 turn. Always run your cottages. That is 6 commerce a turn your losing.

The islands near Toku capital could be very nice. Bonus commerce on sea tiles here for each 2 commerce.

Cottages should go to flood plains first. If your going to chop target the forest that are above grassland.

Corn/bananas/clams site looks good. Grab it before Romans do. Have an axe secure route. The stone site is not great. Do you need mids? Your financial AI. Really not sure. Double clams site to east looks good.

@ Lymond - I did suggest Utica should of gone 1E.

Long term I think attacking Romans next. They will have praets if they hook up iron. They can also attack at pleased.

You want trade routes with AI. So sailing and writing will be important here. That and an exploring workboat.
 
Congrats on successful axe rush.

Osaka looks like a solid commerce city with lots of financial riverside cottages.

Need to check south east for food for stone city spot, without food a city there is marginal depending on how badly you want stone wonders.

Kyoto looks like a decent production city with food to work mines. Whip granary then build workboat to explore, maybe two workboats to explore in opposite directions.

I'm not sure why you researched hunting, didn't see any hunting resources yet and downside is that you can't build garrison warriors because you get spearmen instead..

As a general rule if you're playing even half decently you'll be doing 95% of your own research on noble so unlike higher levels ironworking is something for research rather than trade..

If you've got a few islands with food then its worth considering Great Lighthouse in Kyoto because domestic overseas trade routes are a nice little earner and unlike AI trade routes you can have multiple domestic trade routes.
 
Congrats on the axe rush.

If you want domination you can easily run over the world with numidian cavs. The AI takes forever to reach feudalism on noble and until longbows and elephants, basically nothing they make can stand against massed HAs or HA replacements, especially not on this difficulty where their stack sizes are pathetic. You can also go for peaceful development and attack with libbed cuirs, rolling over the map even more easily that way.

Expansion-wise: settle the PH east of your cap to share the corn and grow some riverside cottages. Next, settle the stone (ON it) to chop out the mids somewhere - there's very little rush to do this since AIs are tremendously slow to build such an expensive wonder on noble unless they have BFC stone or something. The next few cities should be to block land from JC (namely, the NW corn/clam and the NE clam, though you may not have uncovered that yet), and then to settle the islands for those juicy intercontinental trade routes (they all have food, conveniently). Cottagespam every single river tile and you should be swimming in commerce in no time.

Research-wise: writing -> math, for libraries and enhanced chops. After that you have a choice - if you want to go killing again, HBR for numcavs. Otherwise alpha for buildup and on the path to currency.

On the screenshot you should've 2-pop whipped that settler a while ago. A good rule of thumb is that it's FAR better to whip away tiles with 3 yield or less than to work them. The extra and sooner production you get from it is simply incomparable.

As for me...

Spoiler :

Warrior-rushed Toku on t33, and then smacked down JC with numcavs. Got mids and CS and with buro + rep I'm breaking 200bpt before t100. The Egyptians are next. On noble HA rushes are so powerful because each city has 2-3 defenders max early game so you can just overwhelm them with speed and numbers, and again there is not really a counter unit (spears can be beaten with numbers + shock or countered w/ the numcav bonus, and archers are too weak to survive more than 2-3 consecutive attacks even with the slightly weaker numcavs).

Spoiler :

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Hey KF

Congrats on the successful axe rush. Honestly, what I usually like to emphasis for newer players in these shadow games is basics like worker management, economy and expansion. However, sometimes an early rush is simply the best thing. Toku was so close and an easy target. The other option though considering the land layout was simply boxing him in.

I think at a minimum you learned a bit about how to execute an early rush. Many times early rushes are just not feasible especially on higher levels..really depends on the layout and proximity, and your access to strategic resources, of course

My one comment, as I was not able to follow much earlier, is that I would have settled the Copper city 1E of current location, which makes it a good helper city for cottages in Kyoto. Overlapping cities is actually a good thing.

I will address your questions next, and then expand on some other key points.


I think that is indeed best for the moment. Odd on Pangaea that you had only met two AIs up to this point. In most cases on Pangaea, you'd likely have met everyone by now. I think it is the strange layout of a) being on this sorta peninsula at the bottom and b) a jungle barrier to the north of you as jungle can really hindered AI scouting.

I think on this level that Alpha would be the best next tech, although with stone just W over there you might pick up masonry for the Pyramids and maybe fail golding wonders. I see no food over there but settling for the stone may be worth it.

no..not at all...generally just use the +4 ep you get from palace and focus it on a strong techer by putting the weight to 1 in the EP advisor screen. Ofc, you really haven't met anyone other than toku(dead) and Rome. Usually a FIN or IMP leader is good to focus on..think Mansa, Willie or Pacal for example. We can go over this more another time as it really is not relevant for you now.

granary in those capture cities are good
Utica monument unnecessary really but I guess okay. I'd probably build another worker there next..maybe take that chop just E from that worker (note: without BUG/BULL you have to cancel worker actions to keep them from finishing chops so you put the chop into the right thing. Also, a city needs to "own" the tile to receive the chop..you can do that in the city view screen by clicking the the tile so it goes for dark to light)
Settler is very fine in Carthage. Question is where to settle. extended scouting is a bit of a problem at the moment. Stone is an option but I'd like more info on fogged tiles over there to see if food. If no food in sea, then might just settle on the stone itself. At least city can get some farms around the lake (and green tiles later) and the lake with LH. It is the stone that is important
I would build library next in Carthage with plans to 3 pop whip immediately it at size 6 (make sure less than 30H of production into Library when whipping..so be careful with the forest chops). Then Kyoto can grow into 2 scientists to work toward that Great Scientists (GS) for an academy in Carthage.

Does not need to be big at all right now. You've got a few axes for barb protect and spawnbusting

Well, the first question is where do you settle. As long as you have good or important spots to settle then I would keep expanding. The jungle to the N and E is a bit of a problem at present so my focus would be on cities that can be useful now. Stone provides stone though not food resources visible at present. There is some dry plains sheep down south, but that city could share corn with Carthage. However, the coast all in the South needs to be scouted better to see if any seafood present. I'd like to know what is over E by those horses. I'm going to address scouting in a moment though.

It is not a concern. Definitely don't go for early religions. I'm sure you've already been instructed not to do that. Ais will usually spread to you anyway or via trade routes. You might end up founding one later yourself with a later tech like Code of laws or Pacifism. Religion has some nice benefits but founding them yourself is generally of no import.

Not at the moment. You are building an Empire at the moment. i assume you will likely go with other a conquest or dom victory here with is easy and fun on pangaea or maybe space.


Okay other notes:

1) You need to scout and spawnbust better. I realize though that your attention and resources were focused on ending Japan early. But now you need to explore more around the immediate area. First, that warrior is not needed in Utica. Send him SW to explore coast around stone and then send him along the southern coast to spot for seafood. Those 3 axes in Osaka can all head N, NE and E to scout and spawnbust those areas, getting more information and kiliing/preventing barbs.

Also, considering the meeting Ai problem, one simple solution is first prioritizing a work boat in Kyoto. In fact, i would put 1turn into a workboat there and then 1pop whip it. Then send it out exploring to the NW along the coast to meet AI, since you are clearly at the bottom of the map. WB scout also opens coastal trade routes later which is nice. Not always needed often on a Pangaea like map, but can be a nice option on other types of maps.

2) After whipping wb in Kyoto, go with Monument next (getting a little hammer OF from wb whip) there so city can access that seafood later. Worker can chop forest on a PH next to city to finish monument quickly, then go granary. (Kyoto maybe be good place to build Pyramids with forest chops once you have access to stone)

3) I think I would go ahead with Masonry now for stone access, and then Alpha and probably Maths

4) It is very important to manage your cities wisely and micro each turn if you are willing (How Cities auto-assign new citizens or adjust them is often poor). Carthage has two cottages that are currently not being worked. Cottages do not grow unless worked nor do you receive the commerce from them. So make sure they are worked over the unimproved tiles. Make sure your cities are working improved tiles if at all possible unless they are presently running scientists or specialists.

Also, always prioritize Flood plains and green river tiles over plains tiles for cottages. Since Carthage will be a Bureaucracy capital I would probably eventually cottage riverside plains, it is by far not a priority over that flood plains cottage or the green river tiles (you do have one) If Utica was one E of its current location it could help Carthage grow its cottages - note this.

5) Lastly, there's is an important concept here to learn early with respect to the sliders and teching. Right now, you have some city capture gold from Japan so you have a good bank at the moment to run 100% research. But here is the concept I want you to get use to. Either run 100% research or 0% research to bank gold. You don't need to do so at the moment cause you have gold, but generally the point here is that once you settle that first city you start deficit research. This is the point you start banking gold at 0% until you have enough to fund that next tech-simply do the math. Then immediately raise slider to 100% and complete the tech. Maintenance costs are lower on Noble and techs relatively cheaper so you don't fully realize the effect I'm talking about here, but you will the more you play and as you advance difficulty as maintenance costs increase substantially. This is called binary research. For one, there is a rounding issue in the game that is eliminated by running 0% research (or 100% research), or as we say "maxing out gold".

As an example, try it out now on this turn. Lower slider to 0%. (assume you have switched Carthage to its cottages) You should see the gold at the top at +18 per turn and beakers at 0 per turn from commerce. (note: you do always get 1bpt even at 0%..that is the binary)

Now raise slider to 10%. You now make 15gpt so 10% cost you 3 gpt. But wait, you are only getting 2bpt. Something got lost their..ha. So that is why you max gold at 0% and then run 100%..not in between. This problem gets eliminated later once you get beaker multipliers in place and start running scientists and other stuff. I will show that again later. Plus, you will have ways to get quick chunks of gold to keep slider at 100%. But for now get used to 0% or 100%..not in between.

(Another little educational tip on the slider just in case you are not aware. A lot of new players fail to grasp this concept initially..I know I did. So you may be aware that commerce is a feature of this game represented by those gold coins on the map like from cottages and next to river tiles. Little confusing as commerce :commerce: is actually not gold :gold:. Commerce is directly manipulate by those sliders we have been discussing. Essentially commerce feeds those sliders and the sliders allow you to convert commerce into beakers and gold - as well as culture and espionage. So be aware that when you are adjusting sliders you are directly effecting the way your commerce is used.

Commerce comes from cottages, of course, and rivers tiles which are usually cottaged. Also, some resources like gold, gems, sliver and most calendar resources. Coastal and sea tiles have commerce. And lastly but certainly not least important, trade routes are major providers of commerce. Commerce is the main driver of your economy in this game - less specialist usage.

Biggest tip I can give you: ctrl + R to turn on resource bubbles, that will help a lot in planning cities.
You're in great shape overall. Lots of land to settle, lots of riverside tiles so just do a balance of building settlers and growing your existing cities to work cottages.
Happiness is probably your main worry at the moment. Looks like your only available happiness resources are spices and wine? I think going for monarchy would be a good play at this point, both for the wines and you can use your leftover army to get extra happiness. Pyramids could work too, but it's a gamble to start on them this late.
Don't build more military, don't get a religion, don't run espionage. Basically don't do anything fancy, just make cities, food resources, happiness, and cottages.
Kyoto would be a good city to build the national epic in and run as many specialists as possible (great person farm).

He is Charismatic though, so happiness is not a concern much at all for a long time. And on Noble, he has plenty of time to build Mids for Representation. I don't see a concern at all for happiness.

Lymond already gave you some great and very detailed advice. Not much to add.

- Get Granaries up in Kyoto and Osaka
- Explore! Right now there isn't really enough information to know where to settle.
- I think the first city you should settle now is to get Stone (try for Mids in Kyoto with help of chops, even if you fail you'll get some gold). However explore that area west so you can place the Stone city well.
- After that look to settle towards Rome because he may settle that land if you wait too long. You'll have time to backfill later. Generally always settle towards other civs first. There are a lot of nice resources like Banana and Dyes there that you can enable with Calendar in the future. Under jungle is always grasslands too so it makes for good land for Cottages.
- Build Cottages on Flood Plains first, then Grasslands, and ignore Plains in general until Biology or unless a city has big food surplus. Plains are a growth negative tile. Build a cottage on that FP between Carthage and Utica ASAP and a few more on grasslands around Carthage.
- Roading to Osaka isn't urgent. You already have a trade connection via the river.
- Build Workers! You should not work unimproved tiles with few exception like Oasis or Financial coast.
- Kyoto is an absolute food haven with Rice, Cows and two seafood; get a Library in there as soon as it's out of revolt and run some Scientists once it grows and it will get you a Great Scientist. This city is as great an example of a GP farm as you will find in this game. Get a Library in Carthage too as it's growing.
- Research Alphabet so you can trade techs with the AI. Try to trade for Iron Working which will let you cut down jungle.
- Don't build a big army. Axes you have will do a good job to protect you against barbs and also against Rome just in case. Praetorians are their super powerful unique unit that is countered well by Axes. There is enough land here to settle 12ish cities. Your next war can maybe be around Renaissance. Baby steps...

You've done a great job posting regular updates. Play small segments at a time maybe 10-15 turns and you will learn a lot from everyone's feedback. It's a hard game and it's satisfying to make progress.

Great job on the Axe rush by the way. Feels good to bash someone's skull in! :D

Why is your capital running the forests over the 2 cottage tiles. Settler will still take 4 turn. Always run your cottages. That is 6 commerce a turn your losing.

The islands near Toku capital could be very nice. Bonus commerce on sea tiles here for each 2 commerce.

Cottages should go to flood plains first. If your going to chop target the forest that are above grassland.

Corn/bananas/clams site looks good. Grab it before Romans do. Have an axe secure route. The stone site is not great. Do you need mids? Your financial AI. Really not sure. Double clams site to east looks good.

@ Lymond - I did suggest Utica should of gone 1E.

Long term I think attacking Romans next. They will have praets if they hook up iron. They can also attack at pleased.

You want trade routes with AI. So sailing and writing will be important here. That and an exploring workboat.

Congrats on successful axe rush.

Osaka looks like a solid commerce city with lots of financial riverside cottages.

Need to check south east for food for stone city spot, without food a city there is marginal depending on how badly you want stone wonders.

Kyoto looks like a decent production city with food to work mines. Whip granary then build workboat to explore, maybe two workboats to explore in opposite directions.

I'm not sure why you researched hunting, didn't see any hunting resources yet and downside is that you can't build garrison warriors because you get spearmen instead..

As a general rule if you're playing even half decently you'll be doing 95% of your own research on noble so unlike higher levels ironworking is something for research rather than trade..

If you've got a few islands with food then its worth considering Great Lighthouse in Kyoto because domestic overseas trade routes are a nice little earner and unlike AI trade routes you can have multiple domestic trade routes.

Congrats on the axe rush.

If you want domination you can easily run over the world with numidian cavs. The AI takes forever to reach feudalism on noble and until longbows and elephants, basically nothing they make can stand against massed HAs or HA replacements, especially not on this difficulty where their stack sizes are pathetic. You can also go for peaceful development and attack with libbed cuirs, rolling over the map even more easily that way.

Expansion-wise: settle the PH east of your cap to share the corn and grow some riverside cottages. Next, settle the stone (ON it) to chop out the mids somewhere - there's very little rush to do this since AIs are tremendously slow to build such an expensive wonder on noble unless they have BFC stone or something. The next few cities should be to block land from JC (namely, the NW corn/clam and the NE clam, though you may not have uncovered that yet), and then to settle the islands for those juicy intercontinental trade routes (they all have food, conveniently). Cottagespam every single river tile and you should be swimming in commerce in no time.

Research-wise: writing -> math, for libraries and enhanced chops. After that you have a choice - if you want to go killing again, HBR for numcavs. Otherwise alpha for buildup and on the path to currency.

On the screenshot you should've 2-pop whipped that settler a while ago. A good rule of thumb is that it's FAR better to whip away tiles with 3 yield or less than to work them. The extra and sooner production you get from it is simply incomparable.

As for me...

Spoiler :

Warrior-rushed Toku on t33, and then smacked down JC with numcavs. Got mids and CS and with buro + rep I'm breaking 200bpt before t100. The Egyptians are next. On noble HA rushes are so powerful because each city has 2-3 defenders max early game so you can just overwhelm them with speed and numbers, and again there is not really a counter unit (spears can be beaten with numbers + shock or countered w/ the numcav bonus, and archers are too weak to survive more than 2-3 consecutive attacks even with the slightly weaker numcavs).



Reporting in from 875 BC. Expansion is going well; have secured Stone, as well as extra Horses and Cattle. Have meet two more civs, Inca and Germany. Have accelerated scouting as instructed. Built Scouts; Warriors to be disbanded to save money. Keeping military small; enough Axemen to defend all cities, and 1 or 2 Chariots to act as rapid-response force. Got Masonry and Alphabet from research, and Archery through trading; going to go for Iron Working next to start settling northern jungle belt. A few questions:
- Is it worth it to build Walls? I tend to do this in cities where there are no pressing building projects, as I figure extra defense is never a bad thing.
- Should I consider eventually settling that small belt of islands to the NW?
- Should I start looking at running specialists?
- Can I stop whipping for a little bit? I think it's starting to cause happiness problems and stunted city growth.
Saves attached; forgot screenshot.

EDIT: Just wanted to thank everyone for all of their help and encouragement so far.
 

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Have accelerated scouting as instructed. Built Scouts; Warriors to be disbanded to save money.
Okay, need to make this clear for you. Accelerating scouting does not mean building scouts. That is a waste of hammers. You had a few units already that you could send out ..couple of axes and that warrior in Utica as I instructed.
Do not disband your warriors. You already built them and they serve as MP for your cities that you never think about again. Silly to delete. I could see if for some reason you had built a huge amount of warriors for a rush or something, but otherwise do not delete those warriors...they were.

Think of this another way. You invested hammers into those warriors early..mainly for initial scouting and spawnbusting (please let me know if you do not grasp this concept). Now you just deleted all those hammers as you now have to rebuild MP for cities that need it or use your existing advanced units for that purpose when they could do better things.

Keeping military small; enough Axemen to defend all cities, and 1 or 2 Chariots to act as rapid-response force.

Again your warriors MP your cities. The existing Axes you had were fine for busting barbs and scouting a bit to the areas N/NW/NE as I mentioned. Yes, keep things small but your army was already small last time I checked and I saw no need for more units unless you planned to go to war. Chariots for rapid response does not register with me.

Got Masonry and Alphabet from research, and Archery through trading; going to go for Iron Working next to start settling northern jungle belt.

Masonry and Alpha was good. But do not trade for ARchery. That tech is unnecessary. I need to mention something here that will impact you more as you move up levels. AIs have trade caps which vary among leader...except only Mansa who has no cap. They more you trade for dinky unnecessary techs the more you move toward the cap limit. This will prevent you from actually trading for important stuff later. Not much of an issue on Noble granted, but it is a concept you need to learn.

I don't see a need for Iron Working at present. That is something you can trade for later. It's an expensive tech that Alpha will buy for you easily. I would focus on maths and Currency. In most games you are not going to tech Iron Working yourself.

A few questions:
- Is it worth it to build Walls? I tend to do this in cities where there are no pressing building projects, as I figure extra defense is never a bad thing.
No. Only build walls in an emergency..easy whip. there is usually always something important to build but if you have nothing pressing to build then build Research, or later Wealth after Currency. Walls are a waste of hammers
- Should I consider eventually settling that small belt of islands to the NW?
I'm not looking at the game at present as I'm just popping in before hitting the sack. It may be worth it if you build the Great Lighthouse (GLH) and if they have food. Not sure at the moment
- Should I start looking at running specialists?
A library in your cap is very much an early priority, and once you should run 2 scientists there asap. The first GS is usually used for an Academy in your cap which is usually cottaged for Bureaucracy. This will signficantly increase your research rate. Other good food cities should get libraries as well when they can and run scientists as well. Later you will use more GSs for bulb strategies, but we will go over that later.
- Can I stop whipping for a little bit? I think it's starting to cause happiness problems and stunted city growth.
Whipping is generally used for getting out settlers and workers, a fast army, or a key building like a library. Usually you are going to whip at least 2 to 3 citizens so...yeah..you gain 1 unhappy from the whip but lose multiple citizens in the process. But yeah there are times when you may lay of the whip for a while like after you pressed the whip a bit to get out that army. Oherwise, you certainly don't need to just whip cities constantly.

Whipping is done with purpose with full understanding of the mechanic behind it and the consequences. There are still many things you need to learn about it and you will.
 
Reporting in from 875 BC. Expansion is going well; have secured Stone, as well as extra Horses and Cattle. Have meet two more civs, Inca and Germany. Have accelerated scouting as instructed. Built Scouts; Warriors to be disbanded to save money. Keeping military small; enough Axemen to defend all cities, and 1 or 2 Chariots to act as rapid-response force. Got Masonry and Alphabet from research, and Archery through trading; going to go for Iron Working next to start settling northern jungle belt. A few questions:
- Is it worth it to build Walls? I tend to do this in cities where there are no pressing building projects, as I figure extra defense is never a bad thing.
- Should I consider eventually settling that small belt of islands to the NW?
- Should I start looking at running specialists?
- Can I stop whipping for a little bit? I think it's starting to cause happiness problems and stunted city growth.
Saves attached; forgot screenshot.

EDIT: Just wanted to thank everyone for all of their help and encouragement so far.

Why disband warriors to build scouts??? You do realize that you can scout with warriors, right? And also any leftover units can be kept as future garrisons for cities. Unit upkeep shouldn't be an issue at all on noble.

Walls are useless. If you have nothing, build wealth or research. If you don't have alpha or currency, build monuments for the char happiness and barracks for whipping from those cities again (after, of course, the granaries and lighthouses and libraries).

Definitely settle those islands. Intercontinental trade routes for all your cities will boost your economy significantly.

Yes, stop whipping things and just focus on build wealth/research after getting all the necessary buildings up.

Specialists are good but make sure to run them in food-rich cities to avoid stunting growth...Kyoto is a very nice place to do so for the moment.
 
Wow you deleted the warriors? Were they actually costing you anything?
Unit supply 0. Unit cost 0.

As above walls useless. Chariot/axes/scouts? Why?

Your 2 new cities are terrible. I would not of settled either.
How important was that horse resource? Not really in my view. Absolutely no food resources near it. That granary will take forever to build.
Stone city - Your not even building mids. Could of been settled much later. In mean time you have built a lot of roads that added no value here. Your also building a farm to help a stone city that has no food resource.
You wanted a helper city 1N above the sheep to help run cottages and share the capital's food. It could then use 1-2 food resources while your capital works cottages and grows to happiness cap.
Maybe also one 3W of hippo. That is where it probably should of been settled. Hippo 1N could of grabbed Clams but needed border pop.

I would be growing your capital. Size 3 at 875bc seems very low. You should of been chopping the worker not slow building oir whipping it. I would be using scientists in Kyoto and growing your capital. Size 3 capital running scientist is bad play.

You have built 5 cottages. Your currently running none! They won't grow if you don't use them.
Those 3 flood plains should of been a priority for cottages. Your currently running a farm over a 3f1c flood plain. Micro is important.
Your capital has 3 forest covering green grassland river tiles. Which I new city could be working as cottages.

If you want foreign trade routes you need sailing. IW is a complete waste. Probably should of gone sailing before Alphabet.
Just by settling an island your cities would have a 2c trade route. With Currency this add 2c more for the extra trade route.

You really need to scout out the other islands here. These tend to be great for new cities.

So 5 new cities needed.
2 cities to help with cottages.
2 island cities. One you have not yet explored.
Plus corn city.
 
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Wow you deleted the warriors? Were they actually costing you anything?
Unit supply 0. Unit cost 0.

As above walls useless. Chariot/axes/scouts? Why?

Your 2 new cities are terrible. I would not of settled either.
How important was that horse resource? Not really in my view. Absolutely no food resources near it. That granary will take forever to build.
Stone city - Your not even building mids. Could of been settled much later. In mean time you have built a lot of roads that added no value here. Your also building a farm to help a stone city that has no food resource.
You wanted a helper city 1N above the sheep to help run cottages and share the capital's food. It could then use 1-2 food resources while your capital works cottages and grows to happiness cap.
Maybe also one 3E of hippo. That is where it probably should of been settled. Hippo 1N could of grabbed Clams but needed border pop.

I would be growing your capital. Size 3 at 875bc seems very low. You should of been chopping the worker not slow building oir whipping it. I would be using scientists in Kyoto and growing your capital. Size 3 capital running scientist is bad play.

You have built 5 cottages. Your currently running none! They won't grow if you don't use them.
Those 3 flood plains should of been a priority for cottages. Your currently running a farm over a 3f1c flood plain. Micro is important.
Your capital has 3 forest covering green grassland river tiles. Which I new city could be working as cottages.

If you want foreign trade routes you need sailing. IW is a complete waste. Probably should of gone sailing before Alphabet.
Just by settling an island your cities would have a 2c trade route. With Currency this add 2c more for the extra trade route.

You really need to scout out the other islands here. These tend to be great for new cities.

So 5 new cities needed.
2 cities to help with cottages.
2 island cities. One you have not yet explored.
Plus corn city.

Agree with most of this. Fin riverside cottages are basically loads of free, low-effort commerce especially on the lower difficulties. Not working them basically defeats the point of building them.

I recommended stone city to chop out mids somewhere. But the important part is actually chopping out the mids somewhere once you have the stone! Otherwise that city's just deadweight - with mids, on the other hand, rep pays back for itself very quickly.
 
Two points for me, first is that stone city is marginal and you need to build pyramids at least to make it worthwhile, second is that you're worrying too much about military and defence (e.g. walls, replacing warriors with axes/chariots)..

I disagree with lymond about alphabet on noble. Once you're playing monarch/emperor then alphabet is a good tech to beeline because you can trade for stuff like sailing, pottery, IW etc. On noble alphabet is a bad tech to beeline because its not that helpful in itself during the expansion stage and there's very little to trade for.
 
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