found new religion to a specific city?

[Dooke]

is there anyway of controlling which of your cities is gonna be a new-founded religion's holy city?

- is it the biggest?
- is it the newest?
- is it random?

 

[Baldyr]

Its random, but there are some parameters that apply also. This was posted in the Newbie Questions thread recently:

Here's the raw truth for those interested:

Broken down for convenience the value is counted for each city as

(10 + POPULATION + RAND(1,10)) / (RELIGIONS_PRESENT + 1)

and further divided by 8 for the capital. The city with the biggest value gets chosen.

Spoiler wall of C++ :

for (pLoopCity = firstCity(&iLoop); pLoopCity != NULL; pLoopCity = nextCity(&iLoop))

{

if (!bStarting || !(pLoopCity->isHolyCity()))

{

iValue = 10;

iValue += pLoopCity->getPopulation();

iValue += GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum(GC.getDefineINT("FOUND_RELIGION_CITY_RAND"), "Found Religion");



iValue /= (pLoopCity->getReligionCount() + 1);



if (pLoopCity->isCapital())

{

iValue /= 8;

}



iValue = std::max(1, iValue);



if (iValue > iBestValue)

{

iBestValue = iValue;

pBestCity = pLoopCity;

}

}

}

I guess that you could say that city size matters, and that cities with religions present are less likely to be chosen. But there's still a random element to it.

 

[DodgyDave]

I will say this again, as it seems many dont know.

while what have been said is true, then there is a bit more too this, if you got 20 cities, including capital and 2 religions already, then first ignore Capital, if it already have a single religion it will only get new ones, if you spread them there.

So if you got Islam and Buddism in all cities ignoring capital here as long as it got just one and the two holy cities only include 1 religion each, then will game with next religion see 2 cities each with just 1 religion and rest with 2, which means one of the holy cities will get a new religion, but if you want the islam holy city to have all it can have, then ensure the buddism one also have 2 relgions, because then the islam holy city as the only city with 1 religion, will get the new religion 100% of the time, now you got 3 religions, spread it out fast so all cities got 3 religions except for the city with now 2 holy cities, because it will then get the next one again...

no randomness in this i have ever seen.

 

[kosiosko 1]

That,s why getting one of the early religons quickly is so good, it puts it in your capital,otherwise, you have no real control

 

[Bushface]

I guess that you could say that city size matters, and that cities with religions present are less likely to be chosen. But there's still a random element to it.

Suppose there is a 20pop non-capital city with 1 religion present and a 2pop city with no religion. Then the quoted formula works out to each of these cities having an equal chance of being chosen as the new Holy City. In my experience, what would always happen is that the small no-religion city gets chosen. Very rarely have I had one of the later religions founded in a decent-sized city when there are smaller cities available, even when there are similar numbers of religions present, though it is true that often smaller, newer cities have less religions.
And I don't think this is a case of selective memory.

 

[Willem]

...otherwise, you have no real control

That's not really true. Population counts for quite a bit when the roll is made, so you can whip all the cities where you don't want to have the religion be founded just before you get the religion. It's not 100% effective at controlling the placement, but it does work most of the time.

 

[kosiosko 1]

That's not really true. Population counts for quite a bit when the roll is made, so you can whip all the cities where you don't want to have the religion be founded just before you get the religion. It's not 100% effective at controlling the placement, but it does work most of the time.

I must be missing something really obvious here, i kept copies of the calcs from posts,to reread next time. Like i said if i get it quick, meditation, it goes to my Capital, cause its my only city

but say christianity with 10 citires high POP capital whip the others, it still seens to go to the worst possible site, if i already have a religion mine or someone elses its already spread everywhere by then or at least to any decent choice, I.d whip the capital if it would help with say leaving my fouth city high, use missionarys to convert bad sites etc, allcities BUT it still SEEMS totally random

 

[Willem]

I must be missing something really obvious here, i kept copies of the calcs from posts,to reread next time. Like i said if i get it quick, meditation, it goes to my Capital, cause its my only city

but say christianity with 10 citires high POP capital whip the others, it still seens to go to the worst possible site, if i already have a religion mine or someone elses its already spread everywhere by then or at least to any decent choice, I.d whip the capital if it would help with say leaving my fouth city high, use missionarys to convert bad sites etc, allcities BUT it still SEEMS totally random

Well just look at the equation:

(10 + POPULATION + RAND(1,10)) / (RELIGIONS_PRESENT + 1)

Population counts for about 1/3 of the value, depending on the size of the city. If a city had a pop of 10 then it would be 1/3. So while there is a random element, you do have control over that part of the equation.

 

[frizzy]

Yeah, but population doesn't weigh in that heavily in the early game, since cities are still fairly small then. It's mostly random, which means that it's essentially random.

In the game I'm playing now, I had Christianity pop out of the newly-conquered barbarian city Yaoi, Pop 2 and poor culture.

 

[Willem]

Yeah, but population doesn't weigh in that heavily in the early game, since cities are still fairly small then. It's mostly random, which means that it's essentially random.

But the point is you do have some sort of control. I've had games where I wanted the religion to be founded in a particular city, and all I had to do to ensure that was to whip all the other cities down until that was the largest. Excluding the capital. In most cases the religion would appear there.

 

[catfish99]

Suppose there is a 20pop non-capital city with 1 religion present and a 2pop city with no religion. Then the quoted formula works out to each of these cities having an equal chance of being chosen as the new Holy City. .

Not so. Lets ignore the random part. The 20- pop city would have 30/2, or 15 as their base number. {(10+POP)/1+1}. The 2 pop city would have 12/1, or 12 as their base number. The 20- pop city therefore has a 60% chance and the 2-pop city has a 40% chance (the difference of 3 in their base number does not matter. The higher number city will win every time its random number is higher than or equal to the smaller city.)

 

[frizzy]

I don't have a lot of 20 pop cities in the early game when religions are being founded.

Also, you're saying that even with an 18 pop difference, the odds are only 60-40 in favor of the larger city over the barbarian frontier city. That's pretty close to random - close enough to be very often frustrating if you count on religions popping up where you want them to.

 

[Sincro]

The best way to control where religions get founded is to have the city where you want a religion to be founded have the fewest number of current religions out of all your cities. It obviously won't guarantee the religion goes where you want it, but it can make a huge difference.

Let's say you have 3 different religions in your empire. You have 1 holy city. Spread the religions around so that all your cities except your holy city have all 3, the holy city only having the one it founded. Founding a new religion at that point will largely favor the religion being founded in your current holy city, which is useful for making a Wall Street shrine powerhouse.

 

[Willem]

Let's say you have 3 different religions in your empire.

I very rarely have 3 religions in a city by the end of the game, never mind when I am about to found a religion. That typically means that I have none, so your advice here is pretty meaninless in that context. Population in that case is your only chance to exert any control over where a religion founds.

 

[catfish99]

I don't have a lot of 20 pop cities in the early game when religions are being founded.

Also, you're saying that even with an 18 pop difference, the odds are only 60-40 in favor of the larger city over the barbarian frontier city. That's pretty close to random - close enough to be very often frustrating if you count on religions popping up where you want them to.

In the case cited, there was already a religion in play. The presence of a religion is huge, in that each one cuts the base number in half. Let's assume you have two cities without a religion and you are first to Code of Laws. You often can have a pop 9 and pop 2 city in that case, so it is not far-fetched. The pop 9 would have a base number of 19, the pop-2 of 12. In that case, the pop-9 gets the founding 70% of the time (every time the pop-9 city random rolls a 7, 8, 9, or 10, plus 30 times when the the number is a 1-6). Seeing it hit 7 of ten gets you beyond random.
The only reason the huge city and tiny one were relatively close was the presence of the religion.

 

[kosiosko 1]

Willem and catfish99,

between your two post i finally follow the train of thought , i still have a small voice saying ''yes but ....'' . I will give it a go, next time i go spiritual, Thanks

 

[AlphaShard]

Well today something strange happened when founding a religon, the holy city went to a city with higher pop then a newly founded city. I thought I had timed it so the new founded city wouldn't have religon but a relgion auto spread to it (it was mine). So I'm wondering if it was a random roll between the two cities the larger one was pop 2 and the other was still level 1.

 

[Willem]

So I'm wondering if it was a random roll between the two cities the larger one was pop 2 and the other was still level 1.

No, have you not been reading the posts here? Population counts for about 1/3 of the formula that determines where a religion will found. There's nothing strange about what happened at all, it's supposed to work that way.

 

[AlphaShard]

I have been following the thread Willem, but I was under the impression the smaller city would have gotten the holy city. So I am not understanding why it didn't. Both cities had exactly one relgion (pop 2 had Budda and Pop 1 had Confu). Pop 1 city was closer to my capital but other then that what made it go to the other city if not some roll between them?

 

[frizzy]

Look at the formula again. It includes a random number. There's always a degree of randomness to which city becomes the holy city.

So it's not really accurate to say that you can "control" which city becomes the holy city. You can influence it, but it might not go the way you plan.

That's part of the Civ experience, just like