Founding a Religion - when is it worthwhile?

interesting points, and you made me think of something. When going for an early religion I always go for polytheism (in case I miss it I can go for Judaism later), but I just realized that you're right - at least with Buddhism you can build monastaries right away. With polytheism you can't do anything with it for a while.
 
Er.. if you are FIN and start with a costal sea food/oasis/lake & mysticism, that's maybe possible.

actually going directly to HR is a good choice.
 
Y

Inner wonder spam! :p.

"No Zandro, you don't need that stupid wonder. It's expensive and you don't need the bonus"
"But it takes only 10 turns! It'll give me some GPP as well!"
"You really should build that market, in 5 turns the city will grow and start rioting."
"What about the other city?"
"Weren't you about to be invaded by Montezuma?"
"Well, yes, but it's a waste of that wonderful stone resource :( Oh, wait, it'll give me some points for the score and some culture too!!"
"Yes, and make you regret you didn't build those barrageII cats you needed to survive Monty's SoD or the market while Monty pillages your luxury resources."
"Damn you, inner voice!! Next time i'll play Huayna Capac again :wallbash:"

Ontopic:
I'm tempted to go for an early religion if there's lot's of gold and food in the capital's BFC. Especially for a cultural victory, it can give you a pretty good start, assuming you pick up confusianism and taoism on the way. With 9 cities, that's a lot of cathedrals. When i take this path, often i find myself giving The Oracle a shot after (during) Writing.

Sometimes, when all of your cities have your first founded religion, a new one can be founded your first holy city. Cottagespam it, build WS in it and up goes the science slider. Even war can be financed from that.

It's probably not the most efficient strategy in the book, mainly due to the lack of early improvements, but a viable one nonetheless.
 
It's usually worthwhile IMO - as long as you're not stupid.

I tend to follow these rules:
1) Avoid early religions: Hinduism and Buddhism unlock shiny wonders and shiny religions, but by founding one, an AI is denied a shot, increasing the chances of a Buddhist/Hindu lovefest somewhere else. Judaism is farther away, but the tech path (Polytheism/Masonry) is useless, and the civic only helpful if you have mass religion spread. Not to mention the obvious worker techs shpeal.
2) Head for later religions: Confucianism and Taoism are great to found, but their techs are what makes them attractive. Code of Laws and Philosophy are basically essential (but this has been done to death already, so I won't elaborate). Their advantages, coupled with the free missionary upon founding, makes them nice to get to first.
3) Don't make religion a goal: You'll end up screwing growth and making yourself a ripe target if you head for the Hydra. It takes either an obsessive, hyper, insane, and/or lucky player to survive.
4) Build the shrine ASAP: Shrine income. What more has to be said?
5) Spread it wisely: Don't spread your religion everywhere! Make sure you share a religion (whether or not you founded it) with the zealots and the tech traders, and screw the rest. Sow some religious hatred with careful missionary...missions.
 
Buddhist/Hindu-HATEFEST is saving my skin in a Monarch game right now. In fact now that Caesar is a factor it's threeway as he's Confucian. I went the REX route (huge map) and was militarily weaker than I like to be, but diplo has been the 800 pount gorilla, biggest tool in the toolshed:

Julius DOWs? Bribe Buddhist Pacal against his Confucian enemy and watch them go to town whilst my humble atheist empire remains safe.

Saladin DOWs? No need to bribe Buddhist Stalin against Hindu Saladin! BAM and the rivers flow red with AI blood. Send boxes of tissues to the berieved widows on either side.

Meanwhile I continue to build improvements, get my Herois Epic going, put the polish and perfectionist touches on my "ideal war machine", and soon it will be time. ::sharpens sword::

The Kingdom of Diplo Heaven is reserved for atheists.
 
It's usually worthwhile IMO - as long as you're not stupid.

3) Don't make religion a goal: You'll end up screwing growth and making yourself a ripe target if you head for the Hydra.

What is heading for the hydra? What does that mean :confused:
 
On the lower levels I did fairly well going for 2/3 of the hydra (usually hinduism + judaism) and hoping for a 5-way rivalry out there in the A/I world. Starting on Monarch though, it's totally a non-starter. HUGE distraction from worker and strategic military techs, and an open invitation to get pummeled by any AI or even barbs nearby.
 
It means you need to read RB1 - Cuban Isolationists.
I really recommend that thread. Sirian and Sullla are both great players. Their game is both entertaining and educational.

But to give you a shortcut to the answer: The Hydra is a city that is the Holy City for multiple religions. In RB1, the guys managed to found Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism ... all in Madrid. :eek: That trio is the "classic" Hydra, but you could also apply the term to any super-Holy city.

The main advantage to the Hydra is shrine income. If you can have several shrines in one city, then Wall Street (+ market/grocer/bank) will multiply all of that juicy shrine income into a lot of gold. Later in the game, you can keep the gravy train rolling by founding a corporation (or two) in the same city. When properly fed, the Hydra can provide the basis for a roaring economy....

That said, the Hydra is a big gamble. Sirian & Sullla only scored it because they were both really good players and they got lucky. If you don't land the Hydra, you've basically screwed your entire early game. Even if you do land the Hydra, you're still going to crimp your early expansion in order to do it. So be warned.
 
With a coastal cap (particularly on map types where there is a lot of coast that the AI will want to settle quick), then some leaders (mainly HC and Izzy) make a good shot for running religion even on immort (and once I've managed to make this work on deity). In this case you are looking at the fact that early religious spread is driven by trade linkages and long before the AI can send off their hoards of missionaries with either mons or OR; you will get natural spread via sailing. On something like Archipeligo this works extremely well for Izzy (on deity I founded Hinduism with her while building work boats for coastal fish I did have two forested plains hills to work, was settled on plains hill, and had no early resources to work aside from fish/clams; then teched sailing -> masonry -> mono -> BW which gave me 2 religions in the cap and the GLH. Needless to say, any city anywhere on the coast I founded paid for itself.

More commonly I will chase CoL, Theo, and Philo for their religions with Mono an oddball thrown in at times. The easiest two headed hydra to get is Confu/Christian; go place a blocking city where 3 or 4 border pops will secure vast swathes of land; if you have a choice you want lots of food. Tech order is minimal worker -> poly (my pref, if I miss the oracle this is better) -> priest -> writing. Personally, I like chopping the oracle in my expansion city so I can slingshot CoL. This almost invariably drops Confu in the oracle city; which is massive culture. Now we move on to researching worker techs -> masonry -> mono -> med -> theo (bulb). As you have only two cities, one of which is the cap, you found Christianity in the same city.

In theory you can then run scientists in the cap and use your second GP to bulb philo for a triple headed hydra. More practically, a strong start (i.e. gold/marble in the initial BFC), may let you detour to masonry/mono up front and if you can settle just prior to popping mono you can score a triple there. Quad is again possible, but you will need to REX behind your block after that. Moving up to quint requires a dedicated Priest effort; philo is huge as is Ramases. A quint hydra with a good block can make your RE insane; particularly with strong trade routes; it will take a long time to get the GPr needed to shrine them all (considering you pretty much have to burn 3 GP on bulbs to get them founded); but late game you can run 100% slider with ease.

In general this doesn't effect your diplo too much; must of the world is still going to be divided on Buddhist/Hindu/Jewish lines and you can always muck around by using your confu missionary early to make someone odd man out.

Chasing the middle religions (Confu, Christian, and Tao) is quite worthwhile for a FR based game in its own right. You cannot count on the AI to ever give you those; while odds are certain for one of the early religions and pretty good to get two from either auto-spread or missionaries. Having +5 :) from religion and having a cottage B cap with multiple mons and an academy is rather strong. All three of them come off strong techs which can all be used to nab lib as well. You may never run these religions (aside from a few turns to game the AP), but you still get :gold:, :) , and :science: from them.
 
I have founded a triple shrine city before, but never in a game I won ;) The opportunity cost for founding such a city usually exceeds the benefits. Additionally, I doubt the viability of getting Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. You could get either hind or bud, and then jud, and then another religion...but getting the first three would almost certainly not be possible unless you were playing against very specific opponents, which you wouldn't know unless you were playing a custom game.
 
I have founded a triple shrine city before, but never in a game I won ;) The opportunity cost for founding such a city usually exceeds the benefits. Additionally, I doubt the viability of getting Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. You could get either hind or bud, and then jud, and then another religion...but getting the first three would almost certainly not be possible unless you were playing against very specific opponents, which you wouldn't know unless you were playing a custom game.

I've gotten all 7 religions and won with Izzy on immort. The trick is to:
1. Start with seafood/ inland lake for 2 :commerce: tiles.
2. Get lucky with the AI teching Poly with you and not having a strong tile to work (i.e. an oasis).
3. Flip over to meditation and continue working high commerce tiles to nab your second religion.

This is a high risk gamble that is rarely worth taking, but strong if you make it; for a OCC it makes for EXTREMELY easy times controlling AI diplomacy (send missionaries out to ensure that AIs properly hate each other) and raking in mounds of cash (which we can eventually use with the Kremlin to rushbuy an insane number of nukes.

Only HC can reliably beat Izzy to Poly, most AIs do prefer Med, but a large number either can't go for religion directly, or are ambivalent. With a seafood start, Izzy should stand a good chance of running out to mono (for Judaism) then back to priesthood for Confu. At that point you just have to burn GP FTW. Controlling that many religions = easy cultural victory and wickedly easy to gimp the AI with missionaries.

It doesn't require a huge amount of game setup, just large doses of luck.
 
well then do an online walthrough, would you? Sounds impossible to me. I smell some bull ...
 
well then do an online walthrough, would you? Sounds impossible to me. I smell some bull ...

I managed all 7 religions with Izzy on immortal for her LHC game (I was insanely lucky with HC going poly first and getting some random event dicking him over). Good start, got lucky with the first few religions; bulb/oracled the latter ones. With 7 Cathedrals; culture is freaking easy to nab.

Also with ZERO religion for the AI I get, at minimum, +10% research on the AIs (no mons for them); more realisticly it is quite a bit higher as they take longer to get wonders (no OR), get fewer specs (no Pac), and the warmongers miss the early promos from theo. Also due to the lack of religious unity (and religious civics) AI-AI diplo is screwed to hell. Lower happy caps and even worse border popping are also quite useful.

On immort you have, at best, a 1 in 10 shot at pulling that off with a good start. On emp call it, at best, 1 in 7; much lower and the religious monopoly becomes viable. And no I do not intend to play multiple games with several regenerations to get that to work to post a walkthrough of a bad strat that while possible, teaches people crappy habits.
 
How am I talking out of anything other than my mouth? This guy claimed he founded all 7 religions in a game. It sounded suspicious. He was more mature than to flame me and responded with an explanation and upon reading that explanation I can now see that making sure the AI doesn't found a religion actually would hamper it quite a bit. You, on the other hand, have nothing to add to the conversation, stop wasting time.
 
On immort you have, at best, a 1 in 10 shot at pulling that off with a good start.

I don't think it could be that high. You would need to start with Myst just to have a hope of snatching Hindu or Bud. And while you are researching one of them, at least one AI is finishing off the other.
 
I don't think it could be that high. You would need to start with Myst just to have a hope of snatching Hindu or Bud. And while you are researching one of them, at least one AI is finishing off the other.

1 in 10 with a good start with either Izzy (seafood) or HC (oasis, riverside resources to work, grassland gems). Under these circumstances you have good odds of winning the race for your first religion; for the second religion you just have to have all the AIs head down your religion path. Let's say that 3 AIs are in the religion hunt (other AIs heading off to military tech or whatever); 50% odds each research Med (for instance) first. Then the odds that they all will be researching Med is 12.5%. Because you've nerfed your economy for the short run 1/10 is not bad of an estimate for these limited scenarios.
 
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