Four Green Fields

  • I'm sufficiently oblivious that I never noticed all the leaders were green until my son happened to notice over my shoulder.

Among the deliberate choices I made: choosing only leaders with a green color scheme, choosing only leaders who would be able to build their elite unit. Which is why Joao was not included - no water available on which to build his Carracks.
 
Granary: Did people build a granary in all their cities? If you whip at the health cap the 2 food is effectively worth about 1 food = 1.2 hammers without a granary for a total of about 3.5 with the city tile hammer. With a granary this becomes 6 hammers per turn and is quite good for churning out archers or longbowmen whipping 1 time every 10 turns or so.
If you run organized religion, you can whip at 23 hammers (30*1.25=37.5=60-22.5). Coincidentally, you reach 23 hammers when you hit size 3. I don't think it's especially useful to make granaries early, but there's really nothing else useful to build in your non-wonder city.


Settlers: What is the best way to build settlers? A size 1 city can build one in 34 turns and work a cottage. But grow the city to size 2 (takes 11 turns) and then build a settler and you can whip once 72 hammers have been put into it. That takes 24 turns and together allows 2 cottages to be worked while the settler is being built. Are there better ways to build settlers in the early game?
I found that warrior whipping gives 15 or 16 hammers, and you can whip every 5.5 to 6 turns (depending if you whip before or after size 3). But you generate 3*5.5=15.5 hammers or 3*6=18 hammers, so you don't produce any faster, but you do make a lot of warriors. The only time I find it worthwhile to whip the settler is the final, non-warrior whip. I think size 2 is worth it since you'll have double villages instead of 1 by the time your settler finishes.

Workshops: Initially very weak and not worthwhile, with Guilds and Caste System they can become quite powerful giving a size 2 city working 2 workshops gives 7 hammers which seems very powerful compared with what has gone before. That can churn out Protective archers in 4 turns and longbows in 7 turns; trebuchets take 11 or 12 turns and camel archers take 13 turns.
I found organized religion whipping to be significantly more useful, and you get cottage growth out of it. You can often manage madrassa and aqueducts down to 2 pop whips, and at size 4 you're getting over 2 hammers per food, so really you're trading a 1 food and a cottage/hamlet/village/town for 2 hammers. By the time I hit guilds, I'm only whipping when I'm unhealthy. And if you're expanding adequately, you'll constantly have cities needing slavery. Otherwise, you have to build 2 workshops in range of just about every city, and that's a huge pain to layout.

I wanted to use pacifism, but I really needed my organized religion whips.

Pyramids: Very hard to build but potentially gamebreaking. Three civics are of use.
a) Representation is not needed for happiness and the extra 3 beakers is weak since there are few specialists.
b) Universal Sufferage allows towns an extra hammer and rush buying at 3 gold per hammer. There are a host of sub strategies using early US from Pyramids too numerable to mention.
c) Police State can provide an invaluable 25% boost to hammers from workshops or Slavery used to build units for a final push
I prioritized pyramids pretty late, after AP, apostolic palace, and my GPP generators. Representation was a huge boost to research when I got it, but let's say you go forge first and get an engineer. Rush pyramids, great! But wait, I'm still stuck with a size 1 capital generating 1 to 3 hammers per turn, and I have to wait another 40 turns for my second great person, which means I'll only get 4 hammers per turn to slow build aqueduct (25 turns) + hanging gardens (75 turns) or apostolic palace (100 turns). And my other cities are still stuck at size 2.

Apolostolic Palace: A very powerful wonder when combined with temples and monasteries of the state religion. Gamebreaking if it can be built early enough.
Even better when I remembered monasteries are religious buildings too! You're spiritual, so you can almost one pop whip temples. It can boost your cottage city production 700%! My only issue was that I stupidly converted mehmed for tech trading purposes, and mid game he was way ahead of montezuma and zara. In retrospect, I think it's probably better than hanging gardens. Even if you rush it, you're getting 2 hammers back almost instantly, and another 2 soon after. The initial hammer count in your capital matters so much.
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Hanging Gardens: Provides an extra health and allows all cities to grow 1 bigger. This caused the welcome problem :D of unhappiness in my cities which was solved by whipping a temple.
Without apostolic palace or nerfing your economy by running caste, aqueducts are just stupidly inefficient to build without being able to grow to quickly to size 4. It took my like 6 warrior whips to build that damn stonehenge.

Other wonders: Did people build any other wonders? Stonhenge was useful for me giving extra culture and a continuous source of 2 GPPs and was cheap enough to kickstart in the capital with Bureaucracy and OR. A settled GP was a powerful source of extra hammers.
I tried forge->settled engineer in an earlier attempt, but after the forge, without being able to warrior whip or run double workshops, stonehenge takes forever to build. My first engineer came out after I had slow built stonehenge and right before I finished an aqueduct. Stonehenge first (with granary)->forge was much faster than forge->stonehenge. Great priests are less production, but getting 5 GPP that much earlier made a world of difference, and if you play the RNG right you can get a fast great engineer.
 
Rush pyramids, great! But wait, I'm still stuck with a size 1 capital generating 1 to 3 hammers per turn

I missed a verse: why would you be waiting with a size 1 capital? Isn't the clear play to Forge the Great Engineer elsewhere?

In my game, the second city was founded early - I was sinking hammers into something else before the forge came on line. That whole mess should have been a lot faster in my game, I didn't think about kicking a pair of workshops up.
 
I think the most efficient game would involve going settler first and stealing a worker, shaving off 20 turns of pain. I'm not sure the AI would prioritize it's outer ring though, so I'm not going to try it.

I want to try fast GE->apostolic palace, I think that will put my production ahead by like 50 turns.

Spoiler build :

B.Worker first, tech pottery. I'm trying to skip polytheism now to homogenize my religion. If you go pottery->mining->OR, you'll get judaism.
B. granary, build at least 3 cottages. Tech bronze working, I think you finish it in time or you stall growth with a settler.
B. Settler (I think) tech metal casting (2 workshops) and code of laws. I don't think you can skip this, since you'll be running dual workshops to get the forge and a great engineer afterwards, and will only have palace commerce to tech to theology or math.
Warrior whip Stonehenge, caste system should finish a bit before it finishes. I tested whipping the last part of stonehenge, but you switch out of caste system, which hurts your forge production for 4 turns. You don't even get more hammers out of that whip due to the wonder penalty, I think you have to be within 20 hammers (same as warrior whip)
Build forge with caste workshops, whip after 83 hammers. No point back to size 2 now that you have 1 health.
Slow build something while you're waiting for theology and the great engineer (hopefully), or an aqueduct if you're going hanging gardens. Probably a temple and a monastery, so fit in meditation. Second city should grow to size 2 for the commerce, whip a granary because you can, then slow build a settler. You can switch second city to dual workshops for a period of time if you make sure you get theology or mathematics in time.

Once I have AP, temple first, granary, monastery, aqueduct, madrassa, then I go settlers/workers. Civil service next for bureaucracy, then I like to go for national epic or temple of artemis, whatever's more cost efficient.
 
I missed a verse: why would you be waiting with a size 1 capital? Isn't the clear play to Forge the Great Engineer elsewhere?

In my game, the second city was founded early - I was sinking hammers into something else before the forge came on line. That whole mess should have been a lot faster in my game, I didn't think about kicking a pair of workshops up.

I'm thinking about this right now, and the benefits are you want the +25% in your production city/wonder/GPP city, and you want engineer to combine GPP. Also since I'm trying worker first instead of settler first, the first city makes it a lot faster.

I guess you could run specialists in 2 cities, hadn't thought about that.
 
Conquest in 1913. Popped two GMs, one GE, and got the free GPs from economics and communism. Used the GS to infiltrate Mehmed for revolts, plus had enough EPs built against Zara for one revolt against him. Built hanging gardens, pyramids (burned GE) and oracle.

I went with five cities and ran workshops. The AIs were so backwards by the time I started producing CAs that only Mehmed had longbows. None of them had more than two longbows in a city, or more than four defenders in a single city.

I blew that chance but easily swept through them once I had a stack of about 24 CAs. Final count was 36 CAs with 6 lost, 5 spies, ~8 warriors and three workers.

Without apostolic palace or nerfing your economy by running caste, aqueducts are just stupidly inefficient to build without being able to grow to quickly to size 4. It took my like 6 warrior whips to build that damn stonehenge.

Run workshops to fill out the needed hammers for a whip, factoring for the one hammer per turn you'll generate while growing the city. I even used an unassigned citizen to help hasten a whip. Settlers need ~50 hammers invested depending on how much growth you need to get to size 4.

Another option is to beeline civil service and whip from there. I'd forego the forge until HG is up, just to get access to juicy +75% two-pop whips.w
 
Couldn't help notice the obvious: this is noble. Warrior rushes will work. I simply marched my settler up the diagonal until I saw Monty's border pop and settled appropriately. Started a warrior and beelined BW. After turns 14 switched to stonehenge until slavery came in. Whipped the warrior and saved overflow into the wonder. Teched polytheism (and founded it) while building another warrior. Then beelined monotheism. Around turn 43 or so I marched my 3 warriors toward Monty and DoW'ed him and made sure to assault his city when I saw the pop to 2. The AI will build warrior first and settler then probably an archer. But even with slavery they can't whip immediately at pop 2. Furthermore, the settler will stay inside the city--free worker!

It's turn 45 for me now and I don't know what I will do when monothesim kicks in. Probably pottery next for commerce. At least I have two cities and a worker.

EDIT: Also got a little cash from conquering.
 
Couldn't help notice the obvious: this is noble. Warrior rushes will work.

Yup - I really had no good feel for what was going to be possible under these conditions, so I had to guess what difficulty setting would be right. And of course you have the additional information that AI production is going to suck AND that they have no resources for units. As long as you take down Monty before Jags, your only worry is going to be the barbarians (who DO have metals).

One of the surprises for me was how light the barbarian problem was. With no spare production for fog busting, I really expected more of a headache.
 
I wonder what this would be like at Emperor level, say? The AIs would be much stronger and get big production and research discounts. It might be difficult to found the initial religion like it is in a normal Emperor game compared with the certainty on Noble. Many strategies on Noble rely on religions. Would espionage become important? making a beeline to the Great Wall an option. An Espionage Economy on this map might be fun. Diplomacy with Monte could be a nightmare and players might get a new respect for Protective, I foresee big stacks of jaguars appearing.

Would it be possible to change the level of the game, VoU? After enjoying the Noble I'd like to try Emperor and if that's too tough Monarch just to see how the basic strategies we've found change with difficulty level.
 
Good to know there will be barbs with metals! Still haven't decided how to proceed from turn 45 and what to do with 2nd city. Have been considering GW but how will I ever get a GE? Looks like 2 religions to work with but I am not sure how religion swapping will work with OR and whipping.

EDIT: What effect does whipping have if I run OR with no state religion? (BTW This is not the first time I've taken out Monty with a warrior rush on noble.)
 
As long as you take down Monty before Jags, your only worry is going to be the barbarians (who DO have metals).

I did not try warrior rush, but I have a bad feeling about it. With such sucking production, you will not get lots of warriors before the AI gets archery. Archer rush however, no problem. Especially when, with a barrack, all your archers have cover :rolleyes:

Playing that way, I never found Monty to be a problem. I also took him down last, jags make very bad defenders against shock longbows :mischief:

-- ok, just saw that someone made it. Would perhaps be able to get conquest before 1370 then :) (my record)
 
Would it be possible to change the level of the game, VoU? After enjoying the Noble I'd like to try Emperor and if that's too tough Monarch just to see how the basic strategies we've found change with difficulty level.

The MAP

Copy that to your Public Maps folder (...\My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\PublicMaps) and you should be able to select it from the Custom Game screen.

Note: I do not promise that the map code is a good model to follow. I took the Donut script and hacked on it until I got what I wanted.
 
@JujuLautre

Got some rest and had a similar idea. On noble it might be as simple as teching BW, archery and tech off. Eliminate each AI diagonally, perhaps abandoning the old home to the barbs. But I'm kind of thinking culture win since no one has yet done it.

EDIT: The above plan worked. Conquest in 575 BC, turn 92. Just use the worker from Monty to build a road to Zara (diagonal route) and add his worker to build a road to Mehmed. No need to even build a barracks. Pump out archers. Still want to try culture ...
 
1140 AD with one city archer rush.

I screwed it up, though -- I lost my Mehmed-taking force (my second target), so that delayed his conquest by maybe 10 turns. Also, it depleted my force and let Zara get a third city, delaying his conquest an additional 10-20 turns.


Optimizing?

I need to figure out the right tech path. You want to snag religions so that your archers aren't fighting against holy cities! But maybe you want Aztecs to get an early religion after all so that he techs pottery and you conquered city already has cottages!

I can't tell if I want 2 cities first or not. Two cities = faster archer pumping. However, one city = you get to five archers faster, letting you take down Monty quickly for a second city.


EDIT: Or, in light of the above post, don't bother with barracks and kill with blinding speed. :yuck:
 
EDIT: Or, in light of the above post, don't bother with barracks and kill with blinding speed.

Monty works better than Mehmed as the first target. Most likely he will build a military unit after the settler so you can take his city at pop 2 quickly for two archer pump cities. Mehmed might build a worker after the settler and you will wait forever for a pop to 2 or be faced with auto-razing it. But whoever you go after just move your settler down a diagonal and settle as close as you can to the AI.
 
I was going after Monty first. (Mehmed was second)

I totally didn't think about running my settler over to hug Monty, though. I suppose that makes a huge difference in the speed/effectiveness of the rush!
 
Blah!!!! Just finished with a 465-turn, July 2032 culture win. (Call me Dan Quayle.) Bit of an arduous wonder spree. Things got interesting when Zara DoWed me as I was cash building my GPF artist site. Sent over 3 camel archers and pillaged every town I found to raise the dough for the National Park. Settling up next to Monty helped early expansion and, from the replay, kept the barbs completely away from me. Founding 3 religions was enough. I don't remember my tech path but my last two were nationalism and economics. (No astronomy.)

Spoiler :
Mecca: Went legendary January 2025. Built there was Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Oracle, Great Wall, University of Sankore (engineered,) and was working on the Swedagonpaya at the end. No artist required nor cash buying of wonders. Settled 2 prophets. Only city to build a forge.

Tenochtitlan: Went legendary January 2032. No wonders built there but it did get the Hermitage and Globe. Needed some artists. Settled 1 prophet.

Medina: Also went legendary January 2032. Cash built just about everything: National Epic, National Park, Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame, Statue of Zeus, Taj Mahal (partially enginered.) Needed one more artist than Tenochtitlan.

On the same turn I oracle'd in biology and liberlism'ed medicine.

All three cities got 2 cathedrals. Also built 2 other cities mainly for finance and to prebuild some cottages for the capitol when the health cap was low. At the end I was running US/FS/CS/Enviromentalism/Pacifism. Thoroughly abused the spiritual trait in the early game. All 5 cities got a madrassa!
 
@dalamb

The first AI can be warrior rushed, then archers. On deity Huayna Capac would not even need archers. He probably could tech off after just BW and the wheel.

EDIT: Come to think of it, on lower levels Mansa Musa would work well.
 
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