Franco will move.

[Josu]

Answering posts with an annoying .jpg or animated .gif file is one of the most irritating and trying aspects of trying to debate younger people online at all - regardless of socio-political stance or demographic - nowadays. It is the height of flippance, detachment, and ultimately, deep down inside, no doubt, inability to coherently engage with the topic. It's practically an admission of rhetorical defeat phrased as giving the "proverbial finger" instead. A highly puerile and juvenile, even "punkish" action.



It wasn't "whataboutism" (one of those annoying catchphrases that are SUPPOSED to mean something significant - but like so many others like them, is just dismissive verbal diarrhea in the end), it was a legitimate point, but one you arbitrarily dismissed as meaningless because you obviously had no intelligent response to it, but wanted to maintain your feeling of self-righteousness over it.

I'm getting too old for you damned kids and your roundabout (but transparently so) self-righteous, dismissive, and evasive patter online.

Forget me. You are posing a situation that did not happen just to legitimate a fascist regime, under wich I WAS BORN. Yeah, I am a kid. Thank you for the compliment

 

[Traitorfish]

Just to make things clear (which I thought I already had). I am a USA Constitutionalist, but if that is not available I have my druthers depending on what's available and I prefer individualism rather than collectivism.

Yes, if only there had been some sort of democratic federalist republic in Spain in 1936.

If only we could imagine such a thing.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Answering posts with an annoying .jpg or animated .gif file is one of the most irritating and trying aspects of trying to debate younger people online at all - regardless of socio-political stance or demographic - nowadays. It is the height of flippance, detachment, and ultimately, deep down inside, no doubt, inability to coherently engage with the topic. It's practically an admission of rhetorical defeat phrased as giving the "proverbial finger" instead. A highly puerile and juvenile, even "punkish" action.

Given the circumstances I've been pretty polite, but unfortunately i cannot use the language I wish to, in order to convey my true feelings of worry for you.

You need to step back and evaluate yourself; you don't know me, you don't know my life but yet you speak as if you do, so who is being detached here?

 

[Patine]

Given the circumstances I've been pretty polite, but unfortunately i cannot use the language I wish to, in order to convey my true feelings of worry for you.

You need to step back and evaluate yourself; you don't know me, you don't know my life but yet you speak as if you do, so who is being detached here?

I'm judging by your posts, the tenor and tone of your posts, what you, yourself, say of your life, and what you openly, based on no real evidence or reason, accuse people of being or declare their allegiances and who they support. These are things all of my comments and concerns about you are based on. And, to be honest, it is you who "need to step back and evaluate yourself." You have crossed the line of acceptability many times calling people "Nazis," "Fascists," and "enablers and connudlers with the far-right," based on no legitimate basis or evidence other than your own snap-judgements and highly emotional but superficial takes of such people, a "witch-hunting" mentality that feeds into the "McCarthyist-style siege mentality" I have several times pointed out. And, indeed, I have said, and with good reason, that such an attitude will bring you EXTRA and ADDITIONAL hostility ON TOP of what your transsexual would attract on it's own and SABOTAGE and UNDERMINE the promotion of the cause you're espousing here. You just don't seem to get that.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I couldn't care less about whether you consider my conduct to be "crossing the line" Patine.

 

[Traitorfish]

This thread has seen multiple posters actively apologising for historical fascist regimes, and speculating as to the none-too-drastic conditions that would lead the to support a fascist regime today.

So clearly the important thing is Cloud identifying that obvious fact in terms that some rando finds gauche.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Now look @Traitorfish I should have been more POLITE when i accuse others, you know, decorum and all that, because I'm HURTING my arguments because im not being nice and not being nice is not nice and therefor

 

[Patine]

I couldn't care less about whether you consider my conduct to be "crossing the line" Patine.

See, that's just the problem. You go on and on about "no one knows about your life, or your struggles, or your hardships, and no one should judge you for things they don't know," and you call out - neigh, insult - other people's posts as offensive, transphobic, and Fascistic, and such, and then you go and declare other people's motives, allegiances, and lifestyle in perjorative ways, usually on flimsy amounts of information, and often filling in the blanks yourself, and make posts in the most offensive, obtuse, and belligerent ways possible. The hypocrisy is just gobsmacking!

 

[Cloud_Strife]

See, that's just the problem. You go on and on about "no one knows about your life, or your struggles, or your hardships, and no one should judge you for things they don't know," and you call out - neigh, insult - other people's posts as offensive, transphobic, and Fascistic, and such, and then you go and declare other people's motives, allegiances, and lifestyle in perjorative ways, usually on flimsy amounts of information, and often filling in the blanks yourself, and make posts in the most offensive, obtuse, and belligerent ways possible. The hypocrisy is just gobsmacking!

Let me respond with an equally sensible point: How much is Justin Trudeau paying you to wash his car?

And is it a Delorean, you know the car with the doors that lift up, from that move about the future with mcfly or something

 

[Patine]

Let me respond with an equally sensible point: How much is Justin Trudeau paying you to wash his car?

And is it a Delorean, you know the car with the doors that lift up, from that move about the future with mcfly or something

I don't comprehend the question, Is that an attempt at a koan?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Unfortunately for you, @Patine, I'm a lot more familiar with the "youth" of today and the rhetoric that is often bandied about by their influencers, you might not be given your previous consternation, but i've seen the inevitable descent of people who previously were only fash or alt-right adjacent, go down the pipeline and become actual neo-nazis both off and online, so when someone starts dancing about the issue of free speech and allowing neo-nazis to march and spread their vile filth i know exactly what the end result of that would be and truth be told i don't care much to hear arguments that enable people's suffering and there is no justification for not hounding these people until they stop.

I couldn't care less if i don't convince people, I'm not here to do that, even less if it "sabotages" my point because if someone genuinely believes the above is acceptable, they are lost and no amount of persuasion can bring them back into the fold. Instead, I will consistantly point out the pattern that i see and it's okay to not like that, but until people like you start taking these people to task and stop putting on kid gloves and treat these people with some seriousness, I will continue to point out the patterns

In this thread alone we have people trying to downplay the horrors of a fascistic regime by claiming a democratically elected government was as equally bad, it's insane logic and it's frightening how you cannot see that, even as the posts appear in front of you on your computer monitor, nevermind people coming in to muddy the waters.

 

[Patine]

Unfortunately for you, @Patine, I'm a lot more familiar with the "youth" of today and the rhetoric that is often bandied about by their influencers, you might not be given your previous consternation, but i've seen the inevitable descent of people who previously were only fash or alt-right adjacent, go down the pipeline and become actual neo-nazis both off and online, so when someone starts dancing about the issue of free speech and allowing neo-nazis to march and spread their vile filth i know exactly what the end result of that would be and truth be told i don't care much to hear arguments that enable people's suffering and there is no justification for not hounding these people until they stop.

I couldn't care less if i don't convince people, I'm not here to do that, even less if it "sabotages" my point because if someone genuinely believes the above is acceptable, they are lost and no amount of persuasion can bring them back into the fold. Instead, I will consistantly point out the pattern that i see and it's okay to not like that, but until people like you start taking these people to task and stop putting on kid gloves and treat these people with some seriousness, I will continue to point out the patterns

In this thread alone we have people trying to downplay the horrors of a fascistic regime by claiming a democratically elected government was as equally bad, it's insane logic and it's frightening how you cannot see that, even as the posts appear in front of you on your computer monitor, nevermind people coming in to muddy the waters.

My concern with outright banning free speech based on one or more declared socially repugnant viewpoints is actually different that @Zardnaar, but it is still a very serious issue. That is, once a government, society, and nation have exercised this power, and it becomes accepted as something government and society have the right to do - even for social betterment and containing talk of hate and genocide - where does it end? The socially disliked and scorned of any given society in any given point in are always the easiest targets to start with - in fact, that's what the Nazis themselves - that poem, "When they came for the <blank>, I said nothing for I was not a <blank>," for several lines, and then "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak." The precedent of the power of government and society to censor whole ideological strands on this premise, once firmly established, has no reason, by sociological reckoning to end, and, at the end of thing, tyranny will avail, and only the government will have "free speech," and be able to "state their opinions publicly." I don't have that kind of faith in government or society to hand want to hand over a power to begin with. THAT is my concern about censorship by ideology.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Nothing that you have said gives me any hope that you will ever truly understand the danger that allowing people to advocate for the removal of minorities poses, let alone inspires.

That you are more concerned about a potential hypothetical than the current reality troubles me deeply and leads me to believe that until it begins to affect you and yours, you may not actually have the fortitude to do anything and by then it's too late isn't it @Patine? This is all connected to the last derail with Curt, the advocation of harmful stereotypes causes demonstrable harm to minorities and can lead to people harm them and your answer is to default to the status quo because any change in the opposite direction makes you uncomfortable.

Well guess what @Patine? Minorities are uncomfortable and you offer no hope, no salvation, nothing other than the proverbial "tolerate it". You bemoan my rhetoric, you complain about my language but you fail to see that the entire reason someone like me exists is because i am a response to the failure of your ideology, your ideology's collective failure to bring the rest of society up and there will be more like me as it continues to get worse, not less, so get used to this because there will come a day when you will look back at this conversation and wish you could return to these halycon days.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

My concern with outright banning free speech based on one or more declared socially repugnant viewpoints is actually different that @Zardnaar, but it is still a very serious issue. That is, once a government, society, and nation have exercised this power, and it becomes accepted as something government and society have the right to do - even for social betterment and containing talk of hate and genocide - where does it end? The socially disliked and scorned of any given society in any given point in are always the easiest targets to start with - in fact, that's what the Nazis themselves - that poem, "When they came for the <blank>, I said nothing for I was not a <blank>," for several lines, and then "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak." The precedent of the power of government and society to censor whole ideological strands on this premise, once firmly established, has no reason, by sociological reckoning to end, and, at the end of thing, tyranny will avail, and only the government will have "free speech," and be able to "state their opinions publicly." I don't have that kind of faith in government or society to hand want to hand over a power to begin with. THAT is my concern about censorship by ideology.

Seriously, the old "if I don't allow you to scream 'FIRE' in a crowded theater next thing you know we're all burning to death in our homes wondering why no one woke us up" fallacy has gotten really tired. I'm somewhat disappointed that someone obviously capable of reading and using a keyboard and other such meager skills is still trotting it out.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Seriously, the old "if I don't allow you to scream 'FIRE' in a crowded theater next thing you know we're all burning to death in our homes wondering why no one woke us up" fallacy has gotten really tired. I'm somewhat disappointed that someone obviously capable of reading and using a keyboard and other such meager skills is still trotting it out.

They will double down, even when presented with the fact that people die as a result of bigoted rhetoric being freely espoused.

How many transpeople have to die before people start to realize that depicting them as perverts, sexual predators, men in dresses etc, contributes to the murder and suicide rates? There is no "middle ground" in allowing hate speech or advocation of bigotry, history has shown how quickly it can get out of hand and yet we still hear the same tired, detached arguments from people who style themselves as logical, even as they enable a deeply illogical status quo that not only harms others, but harms themselves.

They don't seem to understand what the implications of allowing bigots to spread, grow and convince others to join their cause, actually entail for minorities, they are detached from it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Seriously, the old "if I don't allow you to scream 'FIRE' in a crowded theater next thing you know we're all burning to death in our homes wondering why no one woke us up" fallacy has gotten really tired. I'm somewhat disappointed that someone obviously capable of reading and using a keyboard and other such meager skills is still trotting it out.

They're going to be screaming fire regardless.
The link I posted on my last thread indicated the rhetoric is getting worse.

It's escalating the threat level.

Doesn't mean you have to give them a mainstream platform but maybe leave places like Stormfront up.

I used Derrick Black as an example of him getting out. His father ran Stormfront.

The David Dukes and Don Blacks of the world will continue to exist regardless.

The difference is everyone knows who David Duke and Don Black are.

It's basically do you want places like Stormfront existing or underground cellular structures similar to a terrorist organization getting more and more extreme.
Because that's what's happening.

The threat level is escalating, Stormfront was moderated and public so places like the ACLU could keep an eye on it.

 

[Dekker]

My concern with outright banning free speech based on one or more declared socially repugnant viewpoints is actually different that @Zardnaar, but it is still a very serious issue. That is, once a government, society, and nation have exercised this power, and it becomes accepted as something government and society have the right to do - even for social betterment and containing talk of hate and genocide - where does it end? The socially disliked and scorned of any given society in any given point in are always the easiest targets to start with - in fact, that's what the Nazis themselves - that poem, "When they came for the <blank>, I said nothing for I was not a <blank>," for several lines, and then "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak." The precedent of the power of government and society to censor whole ideological strands on this premise, once firmly established, has no reason, by sociological reckoning to end, and, at the end of thing, tyranny will avail, and only the government will have "free speech," and be able to "state their opinions publicly." I don't have that kind of faith in government or society to hand want to hand over a power to begin with. THAT is my concern about censorship by ideology.

Sounds like psychologically incoherent concerns initially rooted in a valid fear but turning you into a raving fearmonger who attached labels to people that are meant to denigrate and dismiss their agency and experiences. Your supposed concern over hostility is laughable as you criticize Clouds speech while defend against censorship, because you don't like the tone and tenor of his wording. And yes you are out of touch as you admit unable to keep up with the kids these days, especially choosing to use words only by your definition and ignoring what they have evolved into by all of society. Guess I should make sure to attach neo every time I say Nazi when talking about literal white Supremacists who organize and commit white Supremacists violence, because I'm misusing the word. My bad. Very telling that your advice to Cloud is to shut up and just be passive. Like the gays pushing their agenda just brought them more hostility right? They should have just waited until we granted them their humanity and not sabotage their cause by being so, in our faces about it. Those crazies. Patine, if you are going to diagnose others as having conditions, as you so readily love to do, honestly like I said go back and reread some of your postings, I don't want to be out of touch and pretend that you seem alright.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Because clearly the current strategy of doing sweet **** all has worked out amazingly for their victims.

The issue isn't that the ACLU couldn't keep an eye on them, the issue is that the government refuses to do anything about the existential threat these people pose to sections of society and they are aided and abetted by moderates scared of upsetting the status quo.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's basically do you want places like Stormfront existing or underground cellular structures similar to a terrorist organization getting more and more extreme.
Because that's what's happening.

The extremists don't actually get "more" extreme. They are already extreme. The only difference available to make is whether or not they get more numerous. And to me the main component there isn't places like Stormfront. By the time someone goes to Stormfront, other than trolling, they're already lost. The important thing, I think, is that when they show up in places like...well...here, with their "Well, yeah I support Fascism," ..."Oh, wait, shouldn't have been quite so up front with that, I really don't...but would it really be so bad if I did? I mean, free speech and all that, right?" and there's no real way to pack them back off to Stormfront et al.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I don't know what's more extreme than killing people, something they have been doing for decades prior to any calls for greater moderation.

I think what he means is that they are also targetting non-minorities, you know, white people.

Tolerating these people hasn't work. Ignoring them hasn't worked. Letting them fester in their communities has not worked, but there are no answers, no solutions that will not inconveniance the moderate or make them feel uncomfortable so they default to the status quo, because they cannot imagine it being worse even as minorities pay the price for their inaction and refusal to change.

Others are dying and suffering and the moderate response is to tell us to wait, to engage in civil discourse in the hope of convincing people, some of whom are so detached from the perspective of a minority that they think allowing neo-nazis to march and spread their filth is somehow a value neutral position. That is the true horror of the situation; that moderates will ultimately struggle to support us until it is too late because they have more to lose than to gain by creating a more equitable society.

That minorities have and do suffer from the status quo does not even begin to enter their minds, it's not even malicious it's just a form of unintentional ignorance