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From King to Emperor - ouch

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Horizons, May 22, 2019.

  1. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

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    So I've tried this map as Mali a few times and I just cannot keep up with Ghengis. The closest I got was a late game loss (Ghengis won the space race). As far as I can tell this map is as close to impossible to beat as you can get.

    So in conclusion Emperor difficulty and above are just forms of sadomasochism that require expert exploitation and a relatively good map. I mean, spending 100+ hours of being punished like this can't be called 'fun'.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2020
  2. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    My HoF tells me this was t241 RV. This is continuation from my posts above. First try, no reloads, leisurely play. I went for RV because at some point of time I found it to be the path of least resistance. Rest assured, "expert exploitation" would've won this map probably 100 turns or more earlier, but I have no patience nor self-discipline to become that good a player. Too lazy. But I have yet to see an "impossible" map on Emperor. A random generated, of course, you can always cook something like one free starting tile amidst a very mountainous area... That would be truly difficult :)
     

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  3. Velvet glove

    Velvet glove Chieftain

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    To get to a higher difficulty it may help to do two steps forward, one step back. Go to Deity and play a few games. Have a specific small goal - like get a religion, or successfully invade your closest neighbor. You will fail quite a few times, so see what else you can do. For example you can try to do no settlers and purely military units. Then try a single settler and see if that comes ahead. Try a pure warrior invasion, or a pure slinger invasion, or a pure archer invasion - not a good idea in practice but it you'll get a better idea of the strengths and weaknesses of each unit type. Then go back to Emperor and you'll be like "What... This is easy."
     
    MrRadar likes this.
  4. Bliss

    Bliss Warlord

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    This is very correct. It is almost like at Deity your start is ALWAYS totally contrary to the UA of your civilization. I'm tired of getting domination victories with civs like Brazil and Religious Victory as America. Sometimes I think the game does it on purpose. Always play with the flow.
     
  5. Mahi

    Mahi Warlord

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    I also used to struggle quite a bit on emperor but can beat the game on that difficulty, whenever I want to. With that said, what also others have already concluded in this thread, King difficulty is actually much more fun to play than emperor. I created a thread some time ago, where I blamed emperor difficulty and up just to be plain boring most of the time, due to very locked starting strategies and exploits of the game mechanics.

    As mentioned in the beginning of this thread there are just some Civ 6 mechanics you need to improve on if you want to step up to emperor.
    Mainly timing and correct use of policy cards, timing of eurekas, only researching things you need and be very much aware of the district bonuses/placements in your civilization. Personally I get a bit bored of micro managing the policy cards all the time, which is why I usually play on king difficulty.

    The thing I dislike the most about emperor is the need of constant expanding or military build up in the beginning due to the extra settler the AI gets. I've considered playing a modded emperor difficulty, where the AI does not start with the extra Settler. I've read some great feedback on such a setup.
     
  6. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    Mali isn't supposed to produce anything. They are supposed to buy everything. That's why they are a really weird choice for trying to learn how to play the early game. You play Mali when you want to try something completely different. They're kinda the Venice of Civ VI.

    Which bonuses are just a distraction depends, and it is hard to tell if you don't have a good handle on how to play the early game. There are some incredibly good ones, and some incredibly bad ones, and some incredibly bad ones on good Civs overall.

    Really good ones:

    Alexander - UU replacements for two of the most-used early game rushes. Early game conquest is a very strong strategy.
    Korea - Half-priced districts are super strong. Science is super strong. You don't even need to worry about adjacency bonuses.

    Really bad ones:

    Norway - Navies are often superfluous, and a Religious building without a bonus to getting a Religion is all kinds of terrible.
    Georgia - Religion is a bad strategy. No bonus to getting a religion. Golden Ages aren't make or break and are easy to chain. Walls are situational.

    Really bad ones on good overall Civs:

    America - By the time you get Air units, the game is already over, but a reliable +5 combat bonus is really helpful in the early game.
    China - No one cares about your Great Wall, Emperor Qin. We're here for Wonder spamming, Builder charges, and Inspirations/Eurekas.


    Civ V for a long time emphasized Tall vs. Wide, with Tall usually being the more viable strategy for most "metas" and patch states. In Civ VI, there is only Wide. It is often better to actively avoid population growth in your cities after a certain point. This is due to the District mechanic, which is cool but I don't think people realize how much it warps the entire game of Civ at a fundamental level. Almost every victory type can be summed up as "get a lot of cities, then spam your victory district." The more Campuses you have, the faster you'll get a Science Victory, the more Holy Sites you have, the faster you'll get a Religious Victory, and so on.

    My point is, if you are used to the older versions, you have to unlearn a lot of habits. Large cities are kinda bad in Civ VI, and you have to get a large amount of cities by a certain point or you'll fall too far behind the AI. Religion is also actively detrimental to your ability to win unless you are going for a Religious Victory or your Civ has important bonuses from getting a Religion, due to the fact that you are required to build Holy Sites when you should be building military and Settlers, and said Holy Sites just take up district slots you could have used for your victory district. This also means that Civs with Religious bonuses are generally weak options, especially Civs that don't get bonuses to getting a Religion in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  7. Mahi

    Mahi Warlord

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    The problem is definitly that alot of players struggle with Civ 6, when they come from previous versions. The "there's no real benefit of growing tall cities" mentality is quite off for most traditional civ players.

    I agree that civs' traits can sometimes cause you to lose your focus. Best advise I could give is only play with average tiers civilizations untill you get the hang of it.

    Honestly, civ 6 just has a very steep learning curve as well on higher difficulties because you actually need some sort of plan, and in order to have a plan, you need to be able to remember, what will be available to you down the road. I have quite alot of hours into Civ 6 GS but couldn't tell you, what half of the wonders do, or what a third of the policy cards do. There's just really much to memmorize unless you just play the same routines in every game, which is why the early start on emporer and up can be quite boring.
     
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  8. Horizons

    Horizons Needing fed again!

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    So I've played that Mali game many times over and I think it is impossible to beat.

    So my question is, why play on a difficulty level that makes certain random map/civ combinations impossible to beat?

    Will have to stick to King, I guess.
     
  9. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    People literally beat it though....

    Granted that's not a fun map. Why is rerolling that bad of an idea?

    Nope, this nonsense is specific to Civ 5 expansions. Depending on which preceeding civ a player comes from, they may see a few cities as being puny or microscopic.
     
  10. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    Rethinking this, I think this is a good point. ICS is not so much a strategy as a constant developer bugaboo - it is inherent in the basic design of all Civ games. If more cities give you more power, then the way to win the game is always going to be "get more cities." The older games tried a lot of different systems to incentivize growing large, but not too large (corruption, happiness, etc.) There were a few times where they actually turned the knob too far in Civ 5. That resulted in pushing things into weird place for Civ with 4-6 super tall cities being the "meta" strat for awhile. That's mostly the exception. Its really just a trap in the original Civ design - big cities are cool and sexy! But it turns out that it is almost always better to have many more small hamlets than to have a few big, sexy metropolises.

    There's no shame in re-rolling. The map is clearly winnable - the issue is are YOU able to win it with your current skill level? And is it really worth it/fun to keep beating your head against a wall you haven't mastered yet? I re-roll all the time. When I was first learning Emperor I rerolled a ton, even games I was likely to win. Learning the early game is the most important part. I just examine the game, decide where I think I made mistakes, and apply that to my next game. Now I win Emperor fairly regularly.

    There are no impossible maps. There are maps that, today, you may not be able to beat (or may not want to put the effort into). You will still learn and improve from playing those maps.

    I'll turn your question around: Why would you play on a difficulty level where you are guaranteed to win every map? How would you learn and improve then?
     

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